Gun Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As featured at American Cop Magazine:

Aimed In A New Direction
The SIG SAUER P250

Mark Hanten



SIG's P250 is a new type of pistol and one that’s certain to change the way many view handgun ownership. It brings modular firearm design to a whole new level thus making it the most versatile handgun available.

The P250’s original European introduction in 2004 by SIG’s counterpart there, JP Sauer & Son, was in 9x19mm Parabellum with plans for .357 SIG, .40 S&W and .45 ACP to come later that year. When the process stalled in Europe, SIGARMS’ (the US company) President & CEO sent their lead design engineer, Ethan Lessard, to Germany for collaboration. Eventually, it was decided SIGARMS would complete design work here in the US and production would be done at their Exeter, New Hampshire factory. All four calibers of the P250 should be available before too long. This puts a big exclamation mark on SIG’s long-term commitment to the military and law enforcement. Its features and characteristics make it exceptionally well suited for issuance at the organizational/institutional level — more on this later.

Design modifications necessary to build the P250 in calibers greater than 9mm have delayed the production cycle — but the wait will be worth it. Larger calibers require a heavier, thus larger slide. This requires adjustment to the dimensions of the 9mm slide in order to ensure holster interchangeability between 9mm, .357 SIG and .40 S&W calibers. Other modifications have been ironed out by Lessard and the rest of the SIGARMS design team assuring functionality in its myriad of configurations.

The upshot of this reengineering project resulted in not too many people having any idea what the P250 is. And, after doing a little Internet research, it’s clear, those who think they know about the gun consider it just another plastic framed, DAO semi-auto pistol — how wrong they are.

The Frame

The steel frame for the P250 is kind of like the chassis of a car. It’s the heart of the design and the key to its tremendous flexibility. This chassis-like frame contains the trigger assembly and is the serialized part of the gun. Unlike most other “plastic” guns, the plastic grip/triggerguard/dust cover of the P250 is not part of the frame; rather, it contains the frame. The frame rests inside this grip with the serial number showing through a window on the right side. So, in order to change the dimensions of the grip, you simply insert the frame into an entirely new grip assembly. This simple change is done by hand in well under a minute.

My Way

The range of P250 grips will include full size, compact and sub-compact basic sizes. Each of these basic sizes will be available in either full-width, medium-width, or slim/small. Grips for the 9mm, .357 SIG, and .40 S&W will all be interchangeable. Due to the size of the .45 ACP round, the .45 grips will not be interchangeable with the other calibers.

An additional feature for adjusting fit includes two trigger designs. One is a “short” trigger, and is slightly offset rearward in the triggerguard designed for shooters with shorter fingers. With the slim/small grip size and the “short” trigger, this gun can be shot very comfortably by shooters with very small hands. When you add caliber choice, you can start to see the wide range of options available; “I’ll take mine with a medium width compact grip, compact slide in .40 S&W, please.” Or, “I’d like mine with a full-width, full-size grip and slide in .45 ACP, and I’d like an additional full-width, sub-compact grip and slide in 9mm for concealed carry.”

Shooting The P250

This is an excellent shooting pistol — just what you’d expect from SIG. It feels good in your hand and despite the light plastic grip is well balanced, particularly with a full magazine. With no external safety lever or decocking lever, it’s sleek and clean on both sides with only the magazine release, disassembly lever and ambidextrous slide stop protruding. The various grips have a slight beavertail molded in allowing the shooter to snug the pistol down into the web of their hand without risking slide bite.

Sights are a low-profile combat night sight with green tritium inserts designed by SIGLITE specifically for the P250. The hammer is bobbed and snag free. This gun is designed to be a no nonsense workhorse with ease of operation and simplicity foremost. I noted a few folks on the web saying they thought it was ugly. That’s just stupid. It’s about form following function and when this gun gets you through a bad day, you’ll think it’s absolutely gorgeous.

This gun shoots more accurately than most shooters I know. It certainly shoots better than I can. I had the pleasure of watching Ethan shoot a 9mm version on the test range. At 15 yards, he made one ragged hole in five shots with his favorite load, the Federal 124 grain HydraShok. I don’t think anything else needs to be said about accuracy. Any combat handgun that can shoot one-hole groups at 15 yards is more than accurate enough for the field.

DAO

The trigger definitely deserves special mention. I’m generally not a big fan of double action only (DAO) trigger designs and I used to think of them as somewhat of an “entry level” gun for unskilled or marginally skilled shooters. I guess that’s because DAO guns are thought of as somewhat safer for shooters who might “milk” the trigger, and the longer distance and added pressure of most DAO triggers makes an accidental discharge less likely. Well, I’ve reevaluated this line of thinking after shooting this pistol.

This DAO trigger is significantly shorter, lighter and smoother than any of the other DAO triggers I have shot. It’s about 25 percent shorter than the double action of the conventional double/single. The factory set 5.5 to 6 lbs trigger is smooth throughout the pull with no stacking at the end of the stroke. It’s a great balance between a bench shooter’s light trigger, and a heavy trigger mandated by some police departments as “safer.” While I think training techniques and professional expectations have significantly helped shooters keep their fingers off the trigger until they’re ready to fire, I’d still say there’s a margin of safety afforded by this trigger over most single actions because it definitely requires deliberate action.

Choice Of Departments

I’ve never been a fan of departments selecting one pistol for their entire organization. In fact, departments that force their officers to carry the exact same gun are doing a huge disservice to their cops and the citizens they’re trying to protect. Strong words? Maybe, but after years of watching people shoot, I feel strongly that after the smoke clears from preliminary training, the most important factor in a person’s shooting effectiveness is confidence. Cops who shoot guns that don’t fit their hand, or they can’t control due to recoil aren’t going to shoot with confidence. They won’t like shooting so they won’t practice. They’ll become less confident to the point they can barely qualify. Size matters when it comes to handgun grips.

However, I can see why an organization would want only one model gun for all their people. If you’re responsible for maintaining and servicing numerous guns, it only makes sense to minimize the headaches and confusion of having numerous different manufacturers’ parts and training. Even having several models from one manufacturer for different size officers or different assignments can be a major burden. Parts and maintenance issues are different between models.

This is why the P250 is revolutionary and an excellent solution to the dilemma of which gun to issue to the troops. By issuing the P250 chassis like frame to each member of the organization and outfitting that frame with the appropriate grip configuration and barrel/slide configuration, the organization can minimize the hassles and grief associated with issuing umpteen different models of guns. Or, even worse, issuing one gun to everyone, knowing many shooters are severely compromised by size. With the P250, if some of the shooters’ needs change due to assignment or preference they can come to the armory for a swap or purchase different components on their own — everyone wins.

To Hell And Back Reliability

The best part about this gun is it’s a SIG. I had the good fortune of touring the factory in New Hampshire recently and it’s an absolute beehive of high tech firearms manufacturing. They have rows and rows of the latest high tech CNC machines spitting out precision parts like crazy.

Quality control is a huge part of the SIGARMS’ manufacturing process. They have extremely high standards for all of their parts. There’s a great deal of pride among the employees. It shows in their work and in their attitude. Everyone was working with a purpose and focusing on the details of their step in the process. The stacks of trays containing rows of flawless guns at the test firing range were an awesome sight and testimony to diligent workers. Each pistol is a work of art and a modern masterpiece of engineering — built right here in the good old US of A.

The article with many high res pics can be found at; http://www.americancopmagazine.com/articles/SIG/SIG.htm

- Janq

Note: I've heard much about this gun through the past 6 months but this report is the first I've read that completely explains the product in a way that to me finally makes sense. Up to now as based on reports on the web including a long thread at SigForum I'd written this off as just another SigPro like plastic gun. Now after reading this article I'm like whoa, it could be the perfect solution to questions we've all had even if we didn't think to ask.
 

·
Negative Nancy
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
color me unimpressed. everyone's doing the steel subframe now. it was new 10 years ago. their 'innovation' was getting rid of clunky back strap swaps in favor of more expensive body swaps.

don't get me wrong, every sig i've held felt great and had a wonderful trigger, i'm just not all that fanboytastic when it comes to 'newness' regarding a 100+ year old gun.
 

·
Annihilator
Joined
·
4,782 Posts
Am I missing something here, or is that the most overhyping article ever? That pistol will not revolutionize anything, and like einzelherz said, WT10YA.

Sure, it might be a good pistol (crosses fingers as nothing good has come out of Sig America in a long time), but I highly doubt it will be a "great" pistol that will change the way we look at modern firearms (pistols) lol! I'd never own an American made Sig... If I were to get another sig, It'd be the GERMAN made P220, or possibly the P229 in .40... Other than that, Sig has failed to impress me for a long, long time.

I know you love Sig Janq, but everyone is different, and I tend to put my priorities on quality design pieces that fire every time I pull the trigger, and the only sigs I've been impressed with is the P220, and the P229... I've fired the full line of GSRs, a lot of their newer pistols, and even that .22 mosquito that was all hyped up and turned out to be the biggest failure that I've ever owned.

/bias rant
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Did either of you read the article in full? :huh:

This is a completely revolutionary and useful for most any shooter move by Sig.

I'd had the same thoughts as you guys, before reading the article in full.
Go back and read the full article where it explains in gross detail how this new family line is very much unique and no it's not just about running on a steel subframe.

- Janq
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Bruce,

You had a less than acceptable deal with that Mosquito you bought, a singular product unit amongst a single model line, and have from that figured that the whole company and it's products are garbage.
That just makes no sense at all especially considering the companies history otherwise and that they are known to be a top tier mfr. worldwide.

Every mfr. of anything makes at one time or another a lemon product singular and everyone has had a line that was there Edsel, but that doesn't then make them for ever more past & future to be garbage.

Okay your Mosquito had the suck which you refused to send back to Sig for review/repair/replacement, which they would have gladly done under their lifetime warranty and policy to "Make it right".
Don't allow that one negative and first time experience to color your view forever toward what is otherwise a well known and established leader and innovator in firearms development & manufacturing.

Keep your mind open.

- Janq
 

·
Negative Nancy
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
Janq said:
Did either of you read the article in full? :huh:

This is a completely revolutionary and useful for most any shooter move by Sig.

I'd had the same thoughts as you guys, before reading the article in full.
Go back and read the full article where it explains in gross detail how this new family line is very much unique and no it's not just about running on a steel subframe.

- Janq
only other thing i gleaned was that you could swap the gun body to fit your hand better, which i mentioned. Yes that's fantastic as hell for LEO but for civvies this could be a massive problem. Despite the subframe being the serialized part, the grip from what i can tell retains the magazine and therfore might (through the whimsy of the atf) be the 'receiver'

hypothetical worst case scenario: you buy a p250 for you. your wife likes it, but instead of dropping another $600+ you opt to get a new body to fit her better. Well that new body's going to have to go through an FFL, which sure, might not be a big deal, but it's the complete opposite from the AR setup that most people seem to like where you only need one lower and can swap all the upper (i.e. important parts) as much as you want. I can see buying the gun second hand being even worse since unlike a P99 or *.backstrap pistol you don't get gun + backstraps. instead you *might* get gun that feels like crap and now you get to buy a new body for it.

/rant :)
 

·
Annihilator
Joined
·
4,782 Posts
Janq said:
Bruce,

You had a less than acceptable deal with that Mosquito you bought, a singular product unit amongst a single model line, and have from that figured that the whole company and it's products are garbage.
That just makes no sense at all especially considering the companies history otherwise and that they are known to be a top tier mfr. worldwide.

Every mfr. of anything makes at one time or another a lemon product singular and everyone has had a line that was there Edsel, but that doesn't then make them for ever more past & future to be garbage.

Okay your Mosquito had the suck which you refused to send back to Sig for review/repair/replacement, which they would have gladly done under their lifetime warranty and policy to "Make it right".
Don't allow that one negative and first time experience to color your view forever toward what is otherwise a well known and established leader and innovator in firearms development & manufacturing.

Keep your mind open.

- Janq


Janq,

It's not just based on the mosquito... But I agree, Sig does have a great customer service when it comes to bad guns... I did return the gun because I wasn't impressed with it even when it did fire.

However, I'm basing this off of many sigs that I have fired over the last couple of years. All the newer stuff that has been produced in the USA has been subpar. I don't know if it's me getting a lemon gun every single time, or what, but I'm just not as impressed as I was with the original German made stuff, such as the original P220, and the P229. Those were the original sigs that I loved, and still do to this day. Just wish the new ones would be up to par with them.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
The AR lower is the serialized part though which is why your situation as described exists.
In this case the P250 frame which is internal and it's own part is serialized while the rest of of the firearm are nothing more than parts & accessories including the frame grip.

Agreed regarding the backstraps I too wondered why they did not allow for different depth of backstraps...in addition to modularity of frame sizing.
But it's not like that would be hard to modify in production (e.g. they debut that feature next year) or for the aftermarket to pickup and run with.

This new method of 'building' the gun would be excellent.
In my own case I won three 1911s all with the same manual of arms but in three deifferent sizings only because I needed three different sizings.
Now with the P250 one can own one gun and as the need arises they can pick and choose parts to build it up into whatever they might need/desire for the moment be it a full size, intermediate, or compact...and able to do so across a range of calibers as well, all of of one core serialized part which is the frame.
This for many different situations could work out to be a coin saver as well, all the while defeating various state level gun control mandates toward purchasing limits and time delays too (!).
Want a 'new' gun and/or in a different caliber, no problem just order up the parts and pieces and build up what you desire be it short or long slide and short, medium, or full size in grip and select the caliber preferred too with applicable barrel, mag, and recoil spring.

Revolutionary.

- Janq
 

·
Negative Nancy
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
Janq said:
The AR lower is the serialized part though which is why your situation as described exists.
In this case the P250 frame which is internal and it's own part is serialized while the rest of of the firearm are nothing more than parts & accessories including the frame grip.

Agreed regarding the backstraps I too wondered why they did not allow for different depth of backstraps...in addition to modularity of frame sizing.
But it's not like that would be hard to modify in production (e.g. they debut that feature next year) or for the aftermarket to pickup and run with.

This new method of 'building' the gun would be excellent.
In my own case I won three 1911s all with the same manual of arms but in three deifferent sizings only because I needed three different sizings.
Now with the P250 one can own one gun and as the need arises they can pick and choose parts to build it up into whatever they might need/desire for the moment be it a full size, intermediate, or compact...and able to do so across a range of calibers as well, all of of one core serialized part which is the frame.
This for many different situations could work out to be a coin saver as well, all the while defeating various state level gun control mandates toward purchasing limits and time delays too (!).
Want a 'new' gun and/or in a different caliber, no problem just order up the parts and pieces and build up what you desire be it short or long slide and short, medium, or full size in grip and select the caliber preferred too with applicable barrel, mag, and recoil spring.

Revolutionary.

- Janq
evolutionary.

caliber swaps are nothing new.
serialized frame - technically new, i was just voicing a possible concern. i'm not a 2nd amendment humper like some people but it wouldn't surprise me to see the good ol atf screw commercial customers somehow.
pistol body swap is just a step beyond backstraps. i'm not saying it's not a good idea, i'm just holding my weewee until i see one.

and i support bruce in his amerisig rant. The 556 is a pile of doodee.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Taken part for part individually any one item would be evolutionary, but the whole of those parts compiled into this all new complete and total package product offering is revolutionary.
Caliber swaps are nothing new but what is new is to the degree that this product pulls it off.

As to the 556 the folks who have issue with are pissed because it doesn't come with iron sights standard, is 'ugly', and isn't exactly like a 551/552.
A bunch of cry babies and video game commandos.
That rifle functions and goes bang fine like any other from Sig or elsewhere.

- Janq
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
241 Posts
So will you be able to go from a .45 to .40/9mm/.357 with the same frame? I also didnt quite get wether or not the gun will have a second strike capability on an unfired round. ( I doubt it ). My Sig was made in Germany but I have absolutely no experiance with any US made Sigs.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Balbino,

It's explained in the article that the slide and grip for .45 will be unique due to the rounds size while .40/.9mm/.357 SIG were designed to be same.
As to second strike capability it was not mentioned in the article and not too many firearms have that capability as it is, not that it's absolutely necessary anyway. It's a nice thing to have as a design feature but it's not like if you don't that you're behind the power curve.
This product is explained in the article is an alteration of what was originally a SigSauer design (Euro Sig) taken up the lead designer for Sig America (Exeter, NH) and modified to become what it is now which is a multi-roll solution.

People need to read the article, again, and in it's entirety.

- Janq
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,270 Posts
If they can design this thing right, it would the fucking bees nuts. Imagine having a single fram that you swap any part out of to make a different caliber, length and grip gun. That would be fantastic!

Engineering is key though, because for me reliability is 100% of the value of a gun for me, and if it fired great in 9mm but only 99% in .45acp, then it would be a non-starter.

Now I'm an optomistic guy and hopeful that they can produce this thing, but I've heard of some engineering difficulties there so I'm also prepared to wait... along time. :)
 

·
Negative Nancy
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
Balbino said:
So will you be able to go from a .45 to .40/9mm/.357 with the same frame? I also didnt quite get wether or not the gun will have a second strike capability on an unfired round. ( I doubt it ). My Sig was made in Germany but I have absolutely no experiance with any US made Sigs.
iirc it's a DAO hammer fire so yes, there's 'second strike'
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Agreed Einzel - I too believe it is DAO which would make it SS capable, but the article in specific made no mention of such feature directly.

Agreed Jamz - It's got to be 100% functional and reliable in all guises.
BTW speaking of reliable it looks like I shot the springs out of my Defender. I was at the range yesterday and it was going to slide lock with rounds still in the mag. Time to submit an order to Wolff or Kimber.
I'm down to just one gun now, the SA, as the GSR I sent off to Sig for review and repair.

- Janq
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
gata love that

"sigs to hell and back reliability"

its a BAD ASS idea. especially for the casual shooter who wants a good home D weapon. you can plink all day for the price of 9mm and keep it by the bed with the larger .45 rounds. for those of us who aren't FULLY convinced by the home d practicality of 9mm. my only issue is it looks like it has a really wide grip, and i dont like the DOA aspect. everything else seems really cool, though.
 

·
Negative Nancy
Joined
·
1,164 Posts
Nose Nuggets said:
gata love that

"sigs to hell and back reliability"

its a BAD ASS idea. especially for the casual shooter who wants a good home D weapon. you can plink all day for the price of 9mm and keep it by the bed with the larger .45 rounds. for those of us who aren't FULLY convinced by the home d practicality of 9mm. my only issue is it looks like it has a really wide grip, and i dont like the DOA aspect. everything else seems really cool, though.
all for the price of two guns... :|
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Yep. ^^

The 250 will come with different sized grips too both in length and circumference/width.
It really is a completely innovative and unique offering.

- Janq
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top