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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
***SPOILERS IN POST 10***

***If you want to enter your own response without reading the actual outcome, skip Post 10.***


I used to enjoy scenario threads on Glocktalk and an ancient site called The Red Zone. Here's one for you, based on very real events (not me):

You own a small farm. Your farm is on a busy rural route between two small cities. You have a long driveway with a double-gate arrangement to keep animals, some of which are free ranging, from sneaking out when you enter and leave. The end of your driveway is a loop and is often used as a turnaround by passing motorists.

One afternoon, you're leaving your house in your green car. As you approach the first gate to exit, you notice a car at the end of your driveway with the hood up, and a man seemingly working on his engine. He's blocking your path.

As you are manipulating the first gate, he says, "I'll just be a minute." You tell him no problem and continue to the second gate. As you manipulate the second gate, he says in a harsh tone, "I told you I'd just be a minute." You reiterate, "No problem, take your time."

After you close the second gate, he rounds his car and squares off with you, 20-30 feet away. He says, "You are the guy who cut me off here and flipped me off a month ago. And now I'm going to make it right." You tell him honestly that he's got the wrong person. He says, "I know it was you. You were in your white car." You tell him, again, honestly, that you've never owned a white car and that he has the wrong person. He says, "I know it's you. You traded it in." You tell him he's crazy and to get off your property. You have never met him before in your life.

Your 25yo wife/sister/niece/daughter is 200 yards back at the house with a 1yo child and several large, protective dogs. For our scenario, she is not a defensive shooter and is afraid of guns. 911 response is 5-10 minutes at best.

He is wearing a sweat suit. He rapidly unzips and removes the top, throwing it angrily to the ground. He is now wearing a tee shirt and sweatpants. His hands are empty, he has no visible weapons. He is about 50 years old, 5'8" and overweight - 250-280 pounds.

He charges you at a dead run.

Mission: what's your response?

Originally I was going to include the defensive party's stats but I figured the answers would be more interesting if folks used their own demographics. The only caveats:

- You do NOT have a cell phone, and the area has poor service anyway.

- Also, citizen's arrest is legal in your state, and you're familiar with the legalities of doing so.

Go.
 

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i put on my best church dress and haul butt back to the house! LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Lolz.

He's 20-30 feet from you on a dead run. You're next to your car, facing him. There are two heavy top-to-bottom steel farm gates between you and the house, plus a long driveway.

His car...him...........................................you...your car...gates

........0...-->o............................................o...0...........][....][...... ~ ......house way TF thatta way -->
 

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wait till he is 5 feet away and grab his arm and side step his ass and throw him into my super duper mad max push bumper...

take his wallet and fly to mexico
 

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How far away are you from your car?

at 50 feet I would think I would have enough time to grab my Mossberg from the back seat of the truck and scare the shat out of him just seeing it. Mossberg Dont leave home without it...

Or just jump in and lock the doors of it.

I like these threads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
fatcat said:
How far away are you from your car?

at 50 feet I would think I would have enough time to grab my Mossberg from the back seat of the truck and scare the shat out of him just seeing it. Mossberg Dont leave home without it...

Or just jump in and lock the doors of it.

I like these threads.
You're close enough to your car to reach out and touch it, and you driver's door is open. But remember, he's under 30 feet and already moving. And he has no visible weapons.
 

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I'm 6'1" and as of this morning hit the scale in my Underroos at 159 lbs.
I'll assume for the sake of the exercise that I'm not wearing a conventional defensive weapon such as a firearm or knife.

A man in this guys range of height & weight is most likely to be very much out of shape, akin to a 7/8ths scale 'Tony Soprano'. But with adreanlin and crazyman rage going on he cannot be under estimated. I'll bet that my own Spidey Sense would have gone off at the time I noticed him via the first gate. His comments to me at the second gate though, that would have sent me into a read state of awareness. Reason being reasonable and wholly in control of their mental faculties persons do not give lip to those that they are tresspassing against...and they don't get rattled by the homeowner saying nothign to them otherwise as they attempt to open their own front gate to exit, and possibly offer help. I would never have responded to the BGs second comment in the way that the imaginary guy did but I'll roll with it for the purpose of the exercise.

So there I am and I'm at the front of my catruck (either or) which is lets say three steps backward and I'll imagine that my vehilce is off with the keys in the ignition, even as I know from past experience I'd have left the engine running with all windows rolled up as a 'just in case' measure.
As such to again play along I would not attempt to reenter my car.

I would run...and I'd do so hooking around the rear of my vehicle using it as soft cover to seperate him from me. I cannot assume he is unarmed even as his hands are empty. It's not hard for folk to stow a firearm or knife in their sweatpants. Beside that his own hands and bulk are a weapon in themselves. I'd figure that his own mass would work against him, and it would, as I'm very quick on my feet especially in a short burst run and unlike Tony Soprano I'm not out of shape. I'd race around the rear and long side down my car to the front of right fender of his car. Reason being that he'd have to change direction three times to follow me which would subtlely but in a real way sap energy from him slowing him down. I'd gain distance from him. He'd follow.
I'd then run lengthwise along his car to the rear and with him still coming make a figure eight involving another three direction changes heading back to my starting point at the left front door of my car.
With the BG now further behind than he was to start at possibly 40+ ft. I'd reenter my catruck and firstly lock the doors. Next I'd start the vehicle.
Witht he engine up nd running I now have a weapon to resolve the disparity in force issue I'd had on my hands prior with the man being crazy and thus unreasonable as well as outweighing me by 100 lbs. I personally would have no problem at all with hitting another person with my vehicle. It's not something that would at all be difficult for me to resolve to myself. I'd drive at him and would hit impact him, hard! If he didn't bounce off and stay down looking obviously injured then I'd try again and the next time I'd maybe drive over his legs with a wheel. At all costs I'd try to keep him down, away from my home, and from gaining further ground or from getting into his own vehicle which would become a battering ram against me and/or through my retaining fences.

In normal everyday life I generally give obviously crazy/mentally distrubed/off their meds persons a wide bearth. If they ramp things up to Seabass level and as this guy did start talking crazy 'ish where they imagine me to be the Devil or whatever then well they must be treated as an extremely dangerous person as they cannot be assumed to be or act with any level of reasonableness.

At all costs I'd avoid going hand to hand with him due to both his being heavier than me (though not at all necessarilly stronger...bodyweight and strength are not functions of each other when it comes to adults) and again his mental position is without reasons and thus he cannot be assumed to have the ability to restrain or stop himself.



Fuzz what was the actual outcome of this scenario IRL?

- Janq
 

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I can't go with this. 1: I always have my phone on me. 2: I'm not acknowledging people on my drive in a naive manner as to just pass it off only to be caught off guard.

If I actually had nothing on me, I'm hightailing it back to my house as soon as he is accusing me of something I didn't do and if the guy is 20-30' away. I'm outrunning a 50yo man a distance of 600 feet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
*** SPOILER ***

Keep adding your own ideas, but the outcome was as follows:

The defender is about the same age, 6'2, 210 in better shape from farm work but not a health nut. Paunchy gut. He is an avid shooter/collector and has extensive firearms training. He also has a fair amount of training and experience with hand-to-hand but is not a martial arts expert. He also has bad knees and is not a runner. I don't know the exact positioning of the vehicles, so I don't know if it would have been more of a trap to be in his.

He sidestepped the charge and the attacker slammed into the defender's vehicle, causing a big dent. The defender then pummelled the attacker, knocking him out briefly. The attacker got up, gathered his hat and jacket, made some comments, got in his vehicle and left.

The defender was CCW and ready to engage if the attacker had a weapon or got one from the vehicle.

The attacker was later located, identified and charged with assault.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
DJ 9iron said:
I can't go with this. 1: I always have my phone on me. 2: I'm not acknowledging people on my drive in a naive manner as to just pass it off only to be caught off guard.

If I actually had nothing on me, I'm hightailing it back to my house as soon as he is accusing me of something I didn't do and if the guy is 20-30' away. I'm outrunning a 50yo man a distance of 600 feet.
Your phone doesn't work in this part of rural Vermont (see scenario). People are super friendly around here, generally very easygoing, there's almost no random violent crime, and folks use this driveway as a pulloff and turnaround all the time, which the owner/defender has no problem with.

Remember, the attacker's first comment was, "I'll just be a minute." The second was harsher, but not unlike a typical grumpy *******, or maybe someone who misinterpreted the "no problem, take your time" response to the first comment.

The direct aggression didn't start until the defender was through the second gate, which was already closed.
 

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wow - decided to engage even at 20-30 feet (which is still too close)
 

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He's got not much on me in weight, and gives up 6" in height. I'm 20+ years younger, probably faster and more agile. Even with all that, I'm jumping in the car and taking off, knocking him down with it if necessary, because rational people don't accost/mouth-off-to unknown people in their driveways, and irrational nutso crazyheads are dangerous. That's plan A (aka the "RUN!" plan), highly favored over anything else.

Plan B is to run on foot, hoping that he doesn't have CCW in his waistband with which to stop chasing and shoot me in the back.

C/D/E would come along if he got too close to me, and would involve direct physical confrontation. I'm not going to shoot an otherwise not-obviously-armed guy in my driveway if I can help it, no matter how nuts he may be acting at the time. I guess it would depend also on whether I was carrying on my person at that moment- don't want to get into a wrestling match wearing a pistol, too many ways for that to go bad. The sidestep/bounce-advancing-nutbar-cranium-off-fender move is a decent second plan, if I don't have time to get in the car and book.
 

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Considering the new info toward the real world defenders own sizing, age, and health condition (bad knees and being corn fed)...the result makes sense and is pretty much approporiate.
Although I very much doubt I'd lay hands on him and get into a tussle only because frompast experience I know that can go against you/south real quick even if you are the physically stronger/larger person.

Thank goodness for the defender being physically able and mentally sharp enough to side step _and_ that the heavier equally aged attacker was not.

- Janq

"...Pray for me...Because I know that even I got to die. And he got a day for me. And every morning I wake up I'm kinda glad to be alive...From Amsterdam to Amarillo, it aint no secret. The world is a ghetto...What we do, to get by. Live or die. The world is a ghetto" - 'The World Is A Ghetto', The Geto Boys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24c8i_Oq8P4
 

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Here's something I've always wondered about but I'm going to actually have to get some basic numbers with some actual testing first. I feel that at the right speed (aka. really really farking fast) a smaller (but more fit individual) could deal quite the blow (tackle) to a larger individual but it's highly dependent on one's ability to hit a very high velocity sprinting.

top speed big fat man running = ?

top speed younger fit man sprinting full speed = ?

F = M*V

Off to search I go!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Petrus said:
Here's something I've always wondered about but I'm going to actually have to get some basic numbers with some actual testing first. I feel that at the right speed (aka. really really farking fast) a smaller (but more fit individual) could deal quite the blow (tackle) to a larger individual but it's highly dependent on one's ability to hit a very high velocity sprinting.

top speed big fat man running = ?

top speed younger fit man sprinting full speed = ?

F = M*V

Off to search I go!
You still get hit with the combined force. Your best bet in such a direct clash is to hit with harder parts vs. softer parts (e.g. elbow to neck, knee to gut, feet to gut, or shoulder to gut). If you hit in such a way that your body can absorb the impact, and deliver a traumatic blow to him at the same time, you should be able to prevail.

If you just go blindly at him force on force, he wins every time, landing on you and licking you with his tobacco tongue and 4 day beard.
 

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Fuzz541 said:
You still get hit with the combined force. Your best bet in such a direct clash is to hit with harder parts vs. softer parts (e.g. elbow to neck, knee to gut, feet to gut, or shoulder to gut). If you hit in such a way that your body can absorb the impact, and deliver a traumatic blow to him at the same time, you should be able to prevail.

If you just go blindly at him force on force, he wins every time, landing on you and licking you with his tobacco tongue and 4 day beard.
Right, I was assuming the force would be delivered with a last minute foot planting in the target's stomach/chest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Petrus said:
Right, I was assuming the force would be delivered with a last minute foot planting in the target's stomach/chest.
Yeah, I figured. I was just looking for an excuse to use that tobacco image.

 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
And just another thought: a direct side kick to the knee as he is stepping down could put him out of the fight. There's no way he can quickly unweight the leg. And with all that weight being absorbed straight down by the knee and leg as he compresses it, even moderate pressure in the wrong direction could collapse his knee, crippling him.
 
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