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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why should I buy a PUMP when I can get me a Good SEMI-AUTO nowadays from LEGACY (http://www.legacysports.com/product/index.htm) for about the same price. ANYBODY feel as I do that PUMPS are just obsolete now - except for the cops???!! :rolleyes:


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REMEMBER: In a Gunfight, YOU are the weapon, your firearm is just a tool!
 

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Because when it comes down to it, are you going to trust your life to something with so many moveing parts that could fail somehow? Thats why I stick with pump guns. It will fire all types of ammo, not foul up and never jam.
 

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my skeet gun was an remy 1100 that i moved up from an 870 pump


the one double weekend competition one of the rubber bands (gaskets) went out - no spare and no back up gun, so i had forefit

never again


then i got an expensive over under, shot it one season and went back to the 870
 

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not to mention in the dark of night, you could loose a finger verifing you are loaded and ready for action! LOL
 

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I'd give up my semi's before I'd give up a pumps. As long as I have an arm to work the slide it's gonna load everytime no questions ask. I have 7 semis sitting around cuz I never shoot them,with the exception of my 1014 HD gun and my 1100 which is getting tuned up for 3 gun match. I haven't shot the rest in years. If i'm shooting a shotgun just because it's a pump everytime.


MrMcCrackin said:
my skeet gun was an remy 1100 that i moved up from an 870 pump


the one double weekend competition one of the rubber bands (gaskets) went out - no spare and no back up gun, so i had forefit

never again


then i got an expensive over under, shot it one season and went back to the 870
That sucks, wheny I was shoting my 1100 I changed the bands every 2 weeks just to be safe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Jeremy said:
I'd give up my semi's before I'd give up a pumps. As long as I have an arm to work the slide it's gonna load everytime no questions ask. I have 7 semis sitting around cuz I never shoot them,with the exception of my 1014 HD gun and my 1100 which is getting tuned up for 3 gun match. I haven't shot the rest in years. If i'm shooting a shotgun just because it's a pump everytime.




That sucks, wheny I was shoting my 1100 I changed the bands every 2 weeks just to be safe.
AND ur not afraid of "short-stroking" or hitting ur arms in confined spaces causing "jams", etc., if using inside in an emergency? ...like when half sound asleep?

I guess if u've been shooting it all ur life, ur conditioned. But what about everyone else? U still dont think a SEMI would be better for them? (that being "ME", by the way). I dont want to shoot competition...


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REMEMBER: The only thing worse than being in a gunfight is losing one!
 

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GR8-GUY said:
AND ur not afraid of "short-stroking" or hitting ur arms in confined spaces causing "jams", etc., if using inside in an emergency? ...like when half sound asleep?

I guess if u've been shooting it all ur life, ur conditioned. But what about everyone else? U still dont think a SEMI would be better for them? (that being "ME", by the way). I dont want to shoot competition...


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REMEMBER: The only thing worse than being in a gunfight is losing one!

u said conditioning - that is exactly what it is - becomes second nature, happens automatically without concious thought

i got to a point where i could cycle my 870 faster than my father could with the 1100 - without the double recoil!

again it comes down to personal preference and what feels best - its not the same for everyone


i learned my lesson as a teenager - thank god it was at a competition and not in a life threatening situation
 

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Simplicity is perfection.

If an intruder came into the house, I'd take my 870 before I grabbed the benelli M4.
 

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GR8-GUY said:
AND ur not afraid of "short-stroking" or hitting ur arms in confined spaces causing "jams", etc., if using inside in an emergency? ...like when half sound asleep?

I guess if u've been shooting it all ur life, ur conditioned. But what about everyone else? U still dont think a SEMI would be better for them? (that being "ME", by the way). I dont want to shoot competition...


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REMEMBER: The only thing worse than being in a gunfight is losing one!
Conditioning and being familiar with the gun is very important. As far as confinded spaces, if the gun fits you can cycle it.

with a semi, on a reload it's very easy to hit the bolt release before your ready which can lead to anythignfrom a jam to smashing your finger between the bolt and ejection port, hasn't happened to me yet but had a few close calls.

a pump is simple if need be you can cycle it 1 handed pretty easily. I've had 1 short stroke in my life, actually a half stroke my hand slipped offf the grip; and since them I put grip tape on the forestock of any pump that will see use in rough conditions, pretty much eliminated that problem.
 

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All I have for pumps are old ass collectors.

I used to hunt with a pump and bust clays until I shot a Browning A5, and I have only hunted with a pump once since. I had to used a chopped one cause I had so many layers of cloathing on. It was 20 degrees with a 30mpg wind and snowing. My clothes f'ed up my length of pull and I ended up using a Winchester 97 trench gun.
 

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And you've prolly been using that A5 a long time so I would bet you could operate it in your sleep. You're conditioned to it so it feels pretty natural.
Like the saying goes: beware the man with 1 gun, he prolly knows how to use it. Which is part of the reason I'll never be better than average with a shotty.
 

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Until 1999, I don't believe there has ever been a semi-auto shotgun in the US military's front line. (The Remington Model 11 (licensed Browning A5 copy) fielded during WWII was kept stateside and used primarily for base guards.) It was never put into combat. Everything else was a pump.

The only semi-auto to be deployed is the Benelli M4 and it replaced all the pump guns. I definitely go with a Benelli M4. Next time I am ready to shell out ~$1500 on a shotgun it is absolutely at the top of my list. Until then, I'll carry on with my 870 pump.
 

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Pump, because thats what I know. Also common sense says a pump is most likely going to be more reliable than an autoloading counterpart. Saftey aspect to it too. This, like any firearms "vs." will really come down to personal preference I suppose. For me, its all about the manual control provided by pumps.
 

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No-one's mentioned the deterrent effect that the sound of pump being racked has one's adversaries.

Peace,
Hans
 

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Hans said:
No-one's mentioned the deterrent effect that the sound of pump being racked has one's adversaries.

Peace,
Hans

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2


I then loaded a round of Remington 2 3/4", 00 Buck, 9 pellets.

This load penetrated 7 boards, 3 pellets went through the 8th board, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th board.

This is it.




The pellets were pretty badly deformed.


This is the entrance wound for the 00 Buck.

Notice, again, about a 2 1/2" spread from 12 feet.

Also notice the big hole caused by the shot cup.


It was time for the Rifled Slug.

I bought some Remington "Slugger", 1 ounce, Max load, 2 3/4", "rifled" slugs.

This is the Box O' Truth getting killed.


The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

The first one barely penetrated the water jug.

I shot another one, and it actually bounced off the water jug.

This is the entrance of the slug into the 12th board, along with the expanded slug.



Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.


Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
 

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not to mention by cycling a round into the chamber - you give away your position and thus loose the element of surprise
 

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thought you would get a kick outa it!
 
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