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32 Posts
I plan on getting a CCL as soon as I turn 21.

Personally, as much as I like guns, I think they should be outlawed to civilians. At least pistols; hunting rifles/shotguns are cool, but honestly I think pistols belong at ranges to be rented like here in Paris, and not in people's homes. It's amazing how much safer you feel here when going through the sketchy parts of Paris compared to a lightly violent city such as Seattle where I normally live.

However, since pistols and CCL's are legal in the US, and I don't believe that will change, I plan on obtaining both. I figure, if anyone else can have a gun, I'd like to be properly trained and armed to deal with that 1 in 1,000,000 chance (not sure of the actual statistics, but one in million sounds good to me) of truly needing a gun to defend yourself/others.

· Registered
32 Posts
Janq said:
Let me get this straight Todd, you're comparing Paris as in France to America?
Of course you feel safe in 'gay Paris', it's France and Frenchmen!
They are known world wide for being soft and slapping people if riled.
The sketchiest of Parisians are likely a boy band named 'Pede'.

You're thinking you don't have any need for a gun does not automatically and broadly apply to everyone else. That same arguement has been used and lost by people who claim they are good drivers and don't need auto insurance, airbags, ABS, or to wear a seatbelt, motorcyclists who claim they don't need a helmet, college kids and youth who claim they're younf and don't need health insurance, and women who think og I'm not a slut or dress up in heels & makeup so why would those guys in that alley next to my car want to rape me.

Stuff happens and if it's not to you it'll be your neighbor.
Folks own guns and carry them on their person too for a great many varying reasons same as others take MA classes, carry knives on their belt or have fire extinguishers & smoke alarms in their home.
People need, depend on and use fire alarms, extinguishers, ato insurance, airbags, ABS, seat belts, safety helmets and insurance daily. None of these including having a gun in ones home or carried on their person are not an assurance of safety but like insurance it does give one a fighting chance to head off ruin if not simply reduce ones losses.

No one ever thinks stuff happens atleast not to them, untill it does.

- Janq
Did you read my post at all???

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my view. I'll try again, however I feel like you didn't even respond to my post, and yet somehow made me sound like an ignorant moron.

1. If guns are legal, I want you are right, shit happens, it is good to be prepared. If I am going to be in America (I am), then I am going to get a CCL(I will) I am a gun lover, I just don't think that the second amendment works as well nowadays as it did when our constitution was drafted. If you don't agree with me, feel free to ask my dead friends.

2. Paris is not a flitty town, shit does happen. However, because pistols are illegal to civilians, the crimes that happen pretty much NEVER wind up in a death. (protecting one's self from death is the only reason why someone should own a pistol)

3. My overall point is: I am against the public being able to obtain pistols. If you look at the types of crimes that happen in countries without pistols compared to those with them, you will notice they are drastically different, and in my opinion life in the countries w/o guns is better in terms of violence and deaths.

Oh and, with all your little analogies that you put up...I agree with them all, so I don't get what you are trying to get at there.

I'm not one of those people who thinks "It won't happen to me." All I am trying to say is, if I am in a country w/guns, I will purchase one, because I feel it is required for my safety, however I prefer countries where I don't need to worry about crap like that in the first place.

PS- Your comments about France were asinine, I thought you were smarter than that, Janq.

· Registered
32 Posts
I never said crimes would be reduced. Crime happens everywhere, and I feel it is more proportional to how wealthy a nation is than whether or not it has guns, in fact I think guns affect general crime fairly minimally. I guess in the area of violent theft(and only that area) could you argue that the US has it better, but you also need to look at the type of violence, because a simple mugging is a violent theft, but so is shooting a guy, and I'd rather have 10 mugging vitims on my hands than 1 murder victim.

I guess I can't FULLY affirm my stance, as it is a normative opinion, but that's how most opinions work, as it is very tough to test everything in a real world, ceteris paribus manner.

Here are two tables on murders per capita and murders envolving firearms. Unfortunately, the list of Murders per Capita envolving firearms only goes to 32, and France does not make you can't really know how far behind it actually sits, but either way the per capita murder in the United States is ~2.5 times higher than here in France.

As I said, my stance is normative, and I think that if there weren't guns in the US, murders would happen much less. However, you could also say that people will just be killing each other in more creative ways, but I personally think it would be a little bit of both(pre-meditated killings probably wouldn't be effected much, but robbery killings and general agressive violence would have less murders), but overall murders would be lowered.

Murders Per Capita:
Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

Now this is Murders with Firearms:
Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

Edit: Just saw your little PS, bad for lacking a sense of humor at that moment, heh. I tend to get passionate when I debate about things, and that can alter my perception of those who I am debating with. I should have known you wouldn't say something ignorant like that...and I make Frenchy jokes every who am I to whine about it in the first place.

· Registered
32 Posts
Yeah, I agree with that especially in a place like the states where there are so many guns. I guess my position is more from the position of a brand new country that is starting 100% fresh. There is no way we could disarm America, as I said there are way too many unregistered guns, and only the guns we know about could be removed, thus leaving criminals armed and citizens close to defenseless.

Janq-You're right my stats only envolve murders, but I can't find any statistics on violent crimes that are detailed enough to show which were done with or without a firearm, the closest I could come was what I posted earlier. It would be interesting to see what the lower level (non-murder) crimes are like, but from my statistics it does show that there are less deaths, which is generally considered better than more deaths. :wink:

Anyways, as I point of view is very normative, and in today's world it is next to impossible to achieve...but I still think no guns, or at least more strict regulations for owning(and having a CCL) is better than the current rules and restrictions that the US has.

Either way, I can't wait until I get my CCL. :D
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