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As reported on 2.6.06 by KY3 of Springfield, MO:

Thousands take advantage of concealed gun law
by Maria Neider, KY3 News

SPRINGFIELD -- Billie Jo Whaley was 13 years old when a gun changed her life.

"We had just gotten home from school and we were sitting around the kitchen table, doing our homework,” said Whaley. "My mom turned to look out the window and get up and answer the door. At that time, he leaned over the balcony and shot my mom twice.”

Whaley heard the two gunshots.

“I was screaming, ‘My mom, my mom!’” she said.

She remembers staring at her mother, who was bleeding on the kitchen floor. Whaley blamed guns.

"I hated every bit of them and I always felt that, if guns weren't in this world, he wouldn't have been able to shoot my mom," she said.

Many Missourians feel the same way – and fought for years to stop a concealed carry weapon (CCW) law. The fight included one statewide vote against legally concealed weapons, vetoes and veto threats by Gov. Mel Carnahan and Gov. Bob Holden, and a legislative override of one of Holden’s vetoes.

The biggest concern was whether it would cause an increase in gun crimes. Critics feared more criminals would get handguns. Greene County Sheriff Jack Merritt recalls when his own trained deputies worried their jobs would become more deadly.

"Oh, all these people are going to have guns. It's going to be more dangerous when we make car stops," Merritt recalled them saying.

When it came down to it, however, the realistic and final argument was: people who will go through the trouble of taking safety courses and weapons qualification courses are not the criminal element.

One recent safety and certification class included a minister, an attorney and people like schoolteacher Lalea Lazar, who wanted a way to defend herself and her 5-year-old son.

"You need to be prepared,” said Lazar. “It's not a matter of if an incident will happen; it's really a matter of when.”

A rancher from Christian County worried about cattle rustling also was in the class.

"You really need to have the weapon with you if you're going to interrupt a crime in progress, which you very well could,” said Dan Hartley.

Instructors say many people who take the classes to get permits have survived violent crimes against themselves or loved ones. Eighteen years after her mother’s shooting, Whaley shot a gun for the first time.

"I was a little nervous,” she said. “It was a little scary but it was all right."

The sound of gunshots still make her jump, and she was a bit shaky, but Whaley has her sights set on putting the past behind her and no longer living like a victim.

In order to qualify, each applicant must hit 15 out of 20 rounds in the black of a silhouette, seven yards away. In the past 18 months, the Greene County Sheriff’s Department issued more than 2,000 CCW permits.

Merritt says the law hasn’t had the effects that opponents feared.

"I have not seen any road rage, where people jump out of a wrecked car and start waving around a weapon. That's what people were afraid of," he said.

Records show 43 gun crimes were committed in 2003 in Missouri. In 2004, that number dropped to 32 -- 13 incidents before the law became active in July 2004 and 19 more through December. There were 34 firearms crimes in 2005.

"I think it's very much a success," said Merritt.

It was an empowering experience for Whaley. After some extra time on the firing range, she hopes to get her CCW permit in case, some day, she would have to shoot to save her life.

""I'm so ready to do this that I don't really think I'm nervous anymore or scared. I'm just ready to do it. I'm ready to change my life," she said.

To date, the Greene County Sheriff’s Department has issued 1,122 CCW permits. It revoked three after issuing them. It has denied no applications but Merritt says that’s because of the extensive screening process. Now the department is working on a renewal procedure for CCW permits, which are good for three years.

Of course, the department denies many permits to purchase guns, concealed or not concealed. That procedure has been in effect for many years.

Click here to view video of report

The article can be found at http://www.ky3.com/news/2266381.html?autovid=Y

- Janq
 

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Thats a great article Janq, thanks for posting it.


It's a shame that people wont open their eyes to see the light of day. I like to bring it up like this in an example. If you were the criminal, would you rather rob a house that doesn't have guns in it, or would you rather rob my house (brucelee, Janq, or Adler, etc)? Yeah, exactly.


Tis a shame CA won't apply an intense safety course that would allow its citizens to carry.



Janq, let me ask you a question. If you were carrying one day, you were at the park with your wife and daughter playing peacefully and a group of teenagers decided to hang out at a bench close to you... Lets say they were throwing a football around and the football happened to hit your daughter and your daughter started crying. Lets also say that you demanded an appology and they started laughing at you, saying racial slurs, and lets say it got to the point where one of the teens brandished a knife. Not directly threatening you, but just showing you that he has knife in order to scare you. Would you show him your peice? Or would you walk away and hope they didn't harm you?

I personally would flash my gun, but not whip it out, just to show them that I am packing heat and that I am ready to use it. If things escalated further, of course I would protect my family and face any sort of legal charges rather than seeing a family member die.

At what point do you bring the gun into play?
 

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Bruce,

My daughter is 3 yrs. old so pretty much anything will make her cry, even when I hit her with a blast in the face from my squirt gun. :p

But seriously if kids were getting rambunctious and throwing a ball around I'd most likely have walked over pre-emptively and ask them to kindly settle down and give us some space, I've done this before and it works without causing folks to lose face.
But to follow your scenario I doubt I would demand an apology because thats generally not how I roll. I know that on the streets there are no apologies just action, reaction and consequences one way or another. Also I'm not much of a talker when annoyed never mind pissed, I tend to get real focused and chilly in demeanor and just act. So now they're hitting me with the N word and saying my wife is a bitch. I'd most likely tell Mrs. Janq to pack her and the baby up and go to the truck, now, then to lock the doors behind her as well as get into the drivers seat and start the car up to wait for me.
After that it would depend on a lot of factors what I might do next as depending on what their numbers are and relative combined size (I've fought as many as three on one in the past but I was then younger, dumber and more rambunctuous), and whether I felt it was worth my time to go to jail that day which most typically is a big NO. I would not likely brandish my gun and I've been in a worst situation than your scenario while carrying illegally over a decade ago(http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5758239&highlight=gun+trailer#post5758239) and didn't do as much though I did reach for it. I was then able to resolve things by keeping a cool head and using tone (jedi mind trick) without having to resort to physicality, to which I wouldhave been owned if things had gone that way.
The smart move would be to get in the truck along with my wife and kid, drive away up the street then call the cops to report an assault against a child and wait for the flashing lights to arrive double quick then provide a statement and point out from a distance the offenders. That way I win and get my justice without having to ruin my life or that of my wife & daughter, who are most important to me even more than my own momentary pride. Daddy ain't no good to them behind bars.

Now if they came to attack me and I don't believe I can control them by tone if not by hand, this too has happened in years past with Mrs. Janq near by but before we became parents, then yes I would deploy to defend what I then may deem as my own life being in immediate jeopardy as per the ability and means for the multiple wolves who out number me 2, 3 or 5 to 1.
If there's J.A.M. then yes I'd deploy as otherwise I'm just another scary Black guy with a gun featured on the evening news, and I ain't going out like that. I've worked too hard to stay out of the system unlike most everyone else I grew up with to get caught up in something that can be resolved by other methods of retaliation.

- Janq
 

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brucelee said:
Thats a great article Janq, thanks for posting it.


It's a shame that people wont open their eyes to see the light of day. I like to bring it up like this in an example. If you were the criminal, would you rather rob a house that doesn't have guns in it, or would you rather rob my house (brucelee, Janq, or Adler, etc)? Yeah, exactly.


Tis a shame CA won't apply an intense safety course that would allow its citizens to carry.



Janq, let me ask you a question. If you were carrying one day, you were at the park with your wife and daughter playing peacefully and a group of teenagers decided to hang out at a bench close to you... Lets say they were throwing a football around and the football happened to hit your daughter and your daughter started crying. Lets also say that you demanded an appology and they started laughing at you, saying racial slurs, and lets say it got to the point where one of the teens brandished a knife. Not directly threatening you, but just showing you that he has knife in order to scare you. Would you show him your peice? Or would you walk away and hope they didn't harm you?

I personally would flash my gun, but not whip it out, just to show them that I am packing heat and that I am ready to use it. If things escalated further, of course I would protect my family and face any sort of legal charges rather than seeing a family member die.

At what point do you bring the gun into play?
Brucie,

I'd rather rob your house because I could score a lot of guns! I'd just make sure you weren't home before I broke in.
 

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brucelee said:
Thats a great article Janq, thanks for posting it.


It's a shame that people wont open their eyes to see the light of day. I like to bring it up like this in an example. If you were the criminal, would you rather rob a house that doesn't have guns in it, or would you rather rob my house (brucelee, Janq, or Adler, etc)? Yeah, exactly.


Tis a shame CA won't apply an intense safety course that would allow its citizens to carry.



Janq, let me ask you a question. If you were carrying one day, you were at the park with your wife and daughter playing peacefully and a group of teenagers decided to hang out at a bench close to you... Lets say they were throwing a football around and the football happened to hit your daughter and your daughter started crying. Lets also say that you demanded an appology and they started laughing at you, saying racial slurs, and lets say it got to the point where one of the teens brandished a knife. Not directly threatening you, but just showing you that he has knife in order to scare you. Would you show him your peice? Or would you walk away and hope they didn't harm you?

I personally would flash my gun, but not whip it out, just to show them that I am packing heat and that I am ready to use it. If things escalated further, of course I would protect my family and face any sort of legal charges rather than seeing a family member die.

At what point do you bring the gun into play?
Displaying that you're carrying a firearm is Brandishing, which you can be prosecuted for. I don't remember the exacts on the knife distances for drawing on someone, but I think it's like 10 yards or some shit like that. Personally if someone flashes a knife at me, I'm going to ask them "now, what are you going to do with that?" while putting myself between my family and the knife wielding teenager and assuming a casual firing stance. Nothing too obvious on the stance, just get my feet aligned without doing anything too obvious with my shoulders or hands. If his answer is some shit like "I'm going to stick you" or "I'm going to kill you" or any threat like that, he's shown he has the means to kill you by flashing the knife, he's displayed the intent to kill you, and if he's close enough, you can reasonably argue that he was in a possition where you were in iminent danger. If you have all 3 of those, you can legally shoot, but I still prefer trying to "verbally de-escalate the situation" as there's a lot less legal issues and you don't have to carry around the memory of killing someone in front of your family or the possible psychological trauma that your daughter would carry from seeing someone killed in front of her at a young age like that. General rule of thumb is don't do shit while you're carrying that you wouldn't do if you weren't carrying.
 

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Shad is correct, fuurther from what I've experienced directly and seen on the streets his stated response toward someone brandishing is most likely the response one will get when 'flashing' or even bodily making like they are going for a weapon be it a knife or gun.
Nevermind if the wolves have numbers be hind them 2 or 5 for moral support _and_ in the street it's important not to lose face and folks won't run they'll stand their ground and issue a challenege to punk you. Thats how people wind up having their weapon taken from them and end up with it used against them. It's not smart at all to do such stuff.

The first measure of defense is distance, put distance between my family and the wolves ASAP. That means leave the scene. The winner is the guy who goes home no lighter in materiele or flesh than when he came.
I can't see how my daughter witnessing me fighting multiple wolves and/or wind up shooting them is anythign but a losing scenario, as per the scenario stated.

As per the law display and thus use of ones CCW is as a measure of last resort upon fear of emminent and real possibility of death. A ball knockking my or any kid over will annoy if not incense any parent but thats no excuse as per the letter of law, nor likely in the eyes of a jury.

- Janq

"...Don't do shit while you're carrying that you wouldn't do if you weren't carrying." - Shad
 

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I plan on getting a CCL as soon as I turn 21.

Personally, as much as I like guns, I think they should be outlawed to civilians. At least pistols; hunting rifles/shotguns are cool, but honestly I think pistols belong at ranges to be rented like here in Paris, and not in people's homes. It's amazing how much safer you feel here when going through the sketchy parts of Paris compared to a lightly violent city such as Seattle where I normally live.

However, since pistols and CCL's are legal in the US, and I don't believe that will change, I plan on obtaining both. I figure, if anyone else can have a gun, I'd like to be properly trained and armed to deal with that 1 in 1,000,000 chance (not sure of the actual statistics, but one in million sounds good to me) of truly needing a gun to defend yourself/others.
Todd
 

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Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. :)

Welcome to the forum!

 

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Absolut said:
I plan on getting a CCL as soon as I turn 21.

Personally, as much as I like guns, I think they should be outlawed to civilians. At least pistols; hunting rifles/shotguns are cool, but honestly I think pistols belong at ranges to be rented like here in Paris, and not in people's homes. It's amazing how much safer you feel here when going through the sketchy parts of Paris compared to a lightly violent city such as Seattle where I normally live.

However, since pistols and CCL's are legal in the US, and I don't believe that will change, I plan on obtaining both. I figure, if anyone else can have a gun, I'd like to be properly trained and armed to deal with that 1 in 1,000,000 chance (not sure of the actual statistics, but one in million sounds good to me) of truly needing a gun to defend yourself/others.
Todd
Well it sounds like handgun crime could be reduced to zero if the ranges stopped renting guns to criminals. :roll:
 

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Bah.....you people and your concealed carry laws. I'm just jealous because my county in NY is classified as "difficult to obtain."
 

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Absolut said:
I plan on getting a CCL as soon as I turn 21.

Personally, as much as I like guns, I think they should be outlawed to civilians. At least pistols; hunting rifles/shotguns are cool, but honestly I think pistols belong at ranges to be rented like here in Paris, and not in people's homes. It's amazing how much safer you feel here when going through the sketchy parts of Paris compared to a lightly violent city such as Seattle where I normally live.

However, since pistols and CCL's are legal in the US, and I don't believe that will change, I plan on obtaining both. I figure, if anyone else can have a gun, I'd like to be properly trained and armed to deal with that 1 in 1,000,000 chance (not sure of the actual statistics, but one in million sounds good to me) of truly needing a gun to defend yourself/others.
Todd
Let me get this straight Todd, you're comparing Paris as in France to America?
Of course you feel safe in 'gay Paris', it's France and Frenchmen!
They are known world wide for being soft and slapping people if riled.
The sketchiest of Parisians are likely a boy band named 'Pede'.

You're thinking you don't have any need for a gun does not automatically and broadly apply to everyone else. That same arguement has been used and lost by people who claim they are good drivers and don't need auto insurance, airbags, ABS, or to wear a seatbelt, motorcyclists who claim they don't need a helmet, college kids and youth who claim they're younf and don't need health insurance, and women who think og I'm not a slut or dress up in heels & makeup so why would those guys in that alley next to my car want to rape me.

Stuff happens and if it's not to you it'll be your neighbor.
Folks own guns and carry them on their person too for a great many varying reasons same as others take MA classes, carry knives on their belt or have fire extinguishers & smoke alarms in their home.
People need, depend on and use fire alarms, extinguishers, ato insurance, airbags, ABS, seat belts, safety helmets and insurance daily. None of these including having a gun in ones home or carried on their person are not an assurance of safety but like insurance it does give one a fighting chance to head off ruin if not simply reduce ones losses.

No one ever thinks stuff happens atleast not to them, untill it does.

- Janq
 

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Ducman said:
Well it sounds like handgun crime could be reduced to zero if the ranges stopped renting guns to criminals. :roll:
Yeah why do people think criminals give a fuck about laws?
They're criminals, it's in their nature not to and thus their name.

- Janq
 

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Janq said:
Let me get this straight Todd, you're comparing Paris as in France to America?
Of course you feel safe in 'gay Paris', it's France and Frenchmen!
They are known world wide for being soft and slapping people if riled.
The sketchiest of Parisians are likely a boy band named 'Pede'.

You're thinking you don't have any need for a gun does not automatically and broadly apply to everyone else. That same arguement has been used and lost by people who claim they are good drivers and don't need auto insurance, airbags, ABS, or to wear a seatbelt, motorcyclists who claim they don't need a helmet, college kids and youth who claim they're younf and don't need health insurance, and women who think og I'm not a slut or dress up in heels & makeup so why would those guys in that alley next to my car want to rape me.

Stuff happens and if it's not to you it'll be your neighbor.
Folks own guns and carry them on their person too for a great many varying reasons same as others take MA classes, carry knives on their belt or have fire extinguishers & smoke alarms in their home.
People need, depend on and use fire alarms, extinguishers, ato insurance, airbags, ABS, seat belts, safety helmets and insurance daily. None of these including having a gun in ones home or carried on their person are not an assurance of safety but like insurance it does give one a fighting chance to head off ruin if not simply reduce ones losses.

No one ever thinks stuff happens atleast not to them, untill it does.

- Janq
Did you read my post at all???

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my view. I'll try again, however I feel like you didn't even respond to my post, and yet somehow made me sound like an ignorant moron.

1. If guns are legal, I want one...as you are right, shit happens, it is good to be prepared. If I am going to be in America (I am), then I am going to get a CCL(I will) I am a gun lover, I just don't think that the second amendment works as well nowadays as it did when our constitution was drafted. If you don't agree with me, feel free to ask my dead friends.

2. Paris is not a flitty town, shit does happen. However, because pistols are illegal to civilians, the crimes that happen pretty much NEVER wind up in a death. (protecting one's self from death is the only reason why someone should own a pistol)

3. My overall point is: I am against the public being able to obtain pistols. If you look at the types of crimes that happen in countries without pistols compared to those with them, you will notice they are drastically different, and in my opinion life in the countries w/o guns is better in terms of violence and deaths.

Oh and, with all your little analogies that you put up...I agree with them all, so I don't get what you are trying to get at there.

I'm not one of those people who thinks "It won't happen to me." All I am trying to say is, if I am in a country w/guns, I will purchase one, because I feel it is required for my safety, however I prefer countries where I don't need to worry about crap like that in the first place.
Todd

PS- Your comments about France were asinine, I thought you were smarter than that, Janq.
 

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Ducman said:
Well it sounds like handgun crime could be reduced to zero if the ranges stopped renting guns to criminals. :roll:
Whaaaat? Where in my post(and how) did you come to that conclusion?
Todd
 

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All I can say, Absolut, is that you trust your government a whole lot more than I trust mine. :)
 

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Absolut said:
Janq said:
Let me get this straight Todd, you're comparing Paris as in France to America?
Of course you feel safe in 'gay Paris', it's France and Frenchmen!
They are known world wide for being soft and slapping people if riled.
The sketchiest of Parisians are likely a boy band named 'Pede'.

You're thinking you don't have any need for a gun does not automatically and broadly apply to everyone else. That same arguement has been used and lost by people who claim they are good drivers and don't need auto insurance, airbags, ABS, or to wear a seatbelt, motorcyclists who claim they don't need a helmet, college kids and youth who claim they're younf and don't need health insurance, and women who think og I'm not a slut or dress up in heels & makeup so why would those guys in that alley next to my car want to rape me.

Stuff happens and if it's not to you it'll be your neighbor.
Folks own guns and carry them on their person too for a great many varying reasons same as others take MA classes, carry knives on their belt or have fire extinguishers & smoke alarms in their home.
People need, depend on and use fire alarms, extinguishers, ato insurance, airbags, ABS, seat belts, safety helmets and insurance daily. None of these including having a gun in ones home or carried on their person are not an assurance of safety but like insurance it does give one a fighting chance to head off ruin if not simply reduce ones losses.

No one ever thinks stuff happens atleast not to them, untill it does.

- Janq
Did you read my post at all???

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my view. I'll try again, however I feel like you didn't even respond to my post, and yet somehow made me sound like an ignorant moron.

1. If guns are legal, I want one...as you are right, shit happens, it is good to be prepared. If I am going to be in America (I am), then I am going to get a CCL(I will) I am a gun lover, I just don't think that the second amendment works as well nowadays as it did when our constitution was drafted. If you don't agree with me, feel free to ask my dead friends.

2. Paris is not a flitty town, shit does happen. However, because pistols are illegal to civilians, the crimes that happen pretty much NEVER wind up in a death. (protecting one's self from death is the only reason why someone should own a pistol)

3. My overall point is: I am against the public being able to obtain pistols. If you look at the types of crimes that happen in countries without pistols compared to those with them, you will notice they are drastically different, and in my opinion life in the countries w/o guns is better in terms of violence and deaths.

Oh and, with all your little analogies that you put up...I agree with them all, so I don't get what you are trying to get at there.

I'm not one of those people who thinks "It won't happen to me." All I am trying to say is, if I am in a country w/guns, I will purchase one, because I feel it is required for my safety, however I prefer countries where I don't need to worry about crap like that in the first place.
Todd

PS- Your comments about France were asinine, I thought you were smarter than that, Janq.
In reference to your 3rd point. Do you have any proof of this? such as links to websites or some other kind of data? I'm having a hard time believing this one.
 

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Gun-Nut said:
In reference to your 3rd point. Do you have any proof of this? such as links to websites or some other kind of data? I'm having a hard time believing this one.
As am I.

Most often references are made to countries such as Canada, Switzerland, Japan and the Europe minus England, as they have crazy high crime rates and are rising though their laws leave citizens defenseless.

Yes Absolut I read your post and I stand by my reply as well as position, analogies et. al.
Do you know what the crime stats are for France?
Me neither so out of curiosity I hit up first the CIA Factbook which was a bust for crime stats then followed that up witk Mssr. Google;

Last year France recorded 4,244 crimes per 100,000 inhabitants, compared with 4,135 in the United States, where crime has been steadily decreasing. The United States still leads France in the number of murders and rapes per 100,000 residents, but France leads in violent thefts and some property crimes, including car theft.

For violent theft, France recorded 185 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 145 in the United States. For simple theft, France had 2,588 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 2,475 in the United States. And car theft was far higher in France, with 507 reported cases per 100,000 compared with 420 in the United States...

... The fact that so many crimes in France now involve firearms -- everything from pistols to machine guns to grenade launchers used in a spectacular armored car heist last year -- raises questions about France's supposedly strict gun control laws compared with what is seen as a much more permissive system in the United States.

Under French law, any weapon of more than 7.65mm is prohibited for all but security personnel. Smaller weapons, such as pistols, can be obtained only by people with high-risk jobs, such as jewelry store owners, and only after a full background check. Hunters with a valid permit can buy hunting weapons, and sports shooters must be members of the French Shooting Federation. But authorities said there are lapses, and they are trying to tighten the rules.

"We are using every legal way to limit the circulation of weapons," a national police spokesman said.

Source - http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38162-2001Aug20
So it seems France isn't actually all that safe after all, atleast circa 2001 as the Post article is dated. As far as I know they haven't changed their gun laws so I'll guess the crime rate is steady if not on the rise which seems to occur most often, though not always, in states where citizens are disarmed leaving just LEOs and criminals to possess. LEOs have arms via legal means where as their counterparts don't give a five about laws and legality thus their label of "criminal", where as law abiding civilians are left in the middle hoping for the best or praying that gendarme response times are near instantaneous.
Similar situations are same and far worst in other countries where citizen disarmament has occurred including South America at large, Australia in specific and then there is Africa (!).

Thank goodness we have what ever laws we do we have state to state and nationally in regard to weapons ownership regardless of type of firearm, pistol, rifle or shotgun be it for hunting, sporting or even self defense. I followed your overall point (3) clearly in your first post as it was apparent and stated as much in so many words in you second sentence, which again I did read. Yes you'll take advantage of the ability because it's currently leagal and available to you but your primary position is that you shouldn't have the luxury, that was and is your point as stated.

I understand your thinking in general and fears too as I myself used to be in your camp somewhat although never as far as to feel that pistol ownership in specific should be denied. Thing is though as much as gun crimes occur in the US the vast majority of those crimes are committed by criminals in the comission of crime and less so much by law abiding citizens who happen to hunt, shoot targets or even own guns for defensive purposes be they at home or on the streets.
Yes of course every so often a wife beater goes and kills his wife, a looney murders his family, a road rager shoots out some kids BOV or a postal worker goes 'postal'. Those instances though as sad and often depressing as they might be do not outweigh the millions of gun owners from all walks of life who go to their graves never ever commiting a crime or injuring anyone with their firearm. Crime will always exist no matter the criminals be American or French, armed with a gun, baseball bat or nothing more than strong purposeful hands.
Removing peoples ability to protect themselves via whatever means they feel most comfortable or able is not going to reduce crime nor will criminals care about such laws. BTW I too have friends as well as relatives who have been on the unfortunate end of gun crime including myself, thats nothing special or unusual. It's America remember, and as a matter of fact I grew up and lived/survived during what was at the time the nations crime capital. At the time and to this day guns were completely outlawed. Not just pistols but rifles, shotguns, blackpowder and even muzzleloaders and antique/collectibles too, zero tolerance. Little good taking guns out the hands of law abiding and defenseless citizens did, as per the law.

For info and stats toward American crime annualized take a peek at the FBI; http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm.
Additionally as toward gun laws and CCW you might find the real results as provided by Texas toward the miniscule amount of actual crimes committed by otherwise and formerly law abiding citizens; http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm
Maybe these will help you feel more comfortable with civilian gun ownership as based on facts rather than anecdotal suspicion whihc most everyone thinks on first, including myself, before they find out if ever the truth of it all.

- Janq

P.S. - My gibes toward France were largely tongue in cheek and I figured you'ld see that and them for what it is and was, playful sarchasm underlining a more serious tone, analogies inclusive.
 

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I never said crimes would be reduced. Crime happens everywhere, and I feel it is more proportional to how wealthy a nation is than whether or not it has guns, in fact I think guns affect general crime fairly minimally. I guess in the area of violent theft(and only that area) could you argue that the US has it better, but you also need to look at the type of violence, because a simple mugging is a violent theft, but so is shooting a guy, and I'd rather have 10 mugging vitims on my hands than 1 murder victim.

I guess I can't FULLY affirm my stance, as it is a normative opinion, but that's how most opinions work, as it is very tough to test everything in a real world, ceteris paribus manner.

Here are two tables on murders per capita and murders envolving firearms. Unfortunately, the list of Murders per Capita envolving firearms only goes to 32, and France does not make it...so you can't really know how far behind it actually sits, but either way the per capita murder in the United States is ~2.5 times higher than here in France.

As I said, my stance is normative, and I think that if there weren't guns in the US, murders would happen much less. However, you could also say that people will just be killing each other in more creative ways, but I personally think it would be a little bit of both(pre-meditated killings probably wouldn't be effected much, but robbery killings and general agressive violence would have less murders), but overall murders would be lowered.

Murders Per Capita:
Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

Now this is Murders with Firearms:
Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

Edit: Just saw your little PS, Janq...my bad for lacking a sense of humor at that moment, heh. I tend to get passionate when I debate about things, and that can alter my perception of those who I am debating with. I should have known you wouldn't say something ignorant like that...and I make Frenchy jokes every day...so who am I to whine about it in the first place.
 

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Premium Member
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4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Your stats only reference murders.
There are very many other types of crimes committed that may involve a firearm from robbery to kidnapping to assault and rape.

But anyway I think we're coming full circle hers so to quote the French; "Touche'". : :p

For the record my wife is half French her father being a dual citizen born in france to a French father and Canadaian-American mother who then emigrated to Canada briefly and then lastly to America. Not a day goes by in my house when something French or about France comes up in conversation like for example 'french fries' or whine. ;)

- Janq
 
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