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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
WEB EXCLUSIVE: Complete Interview With Man Who Used Concealed Weapon To Stop Robbery

http://kotv.com/e-clips/?id=5600

The stories attached to this are below...

Man Uses Concealed Weapon To Stop Robbery
KOTV - 4/11/2007 5:00 PM - Updated 4/11/2007 6:25 PM

A citizen shoots a robber during a grocery store heist. It happened more than a year ago in the Homeland store at 91st and Memorial. The man has never shared his story until now, and he spoke only to News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright. She reports it was a tough decision for him to make.



It was split second and life or death. The man and his wife had been to the movies and stopped at the grocery store on the way home. They were in the check-out line when the robbery unfolded right in front of them. Joseph saw the men walk into the grocery store and head to the store office with the managers as they pulled their t-shirts over their faces.

Even though he spent 21 years in the military, and believes he made the right decision, it's hard for him to talk about.

"The gentleman I shot produced a handgun and placed it against the manager's head like this and I thought, I need to do something, so, it's harder to talk about, I pulled my weapon, sighted him and fired two shots," said Joseph.

He hit one of the robbers once. Michael Curly, dragged himself out of the store. Another suspect, Mark Brown, ran off. Both men were arrested months later.

Joseph had gotten his concealed carry permit 7 years earlier, and had practiced shooting regularly.

"The only time you can use deadly force is when you believe a life is at stake, and my belief was that manager was about to be killed and I had to do something about it," he said.

Joseph had a Smith and Wesson 357 revolver that night, with five shots and would've been outgunned had the robber shot back. Now, he carries a glock 357 semi-auto with 14 rounds and a laser site.



"I don't regret having shot him,” Joseph said. “I also am pleased he didn't die, for a couple of reasons. Nobody likes to take a life and the other is, maybe he'll tell his friends they need to think twice, or three times about doing what they've been doing."

Joseph never faced any charges in the case, and police returned his gun to him a week later. The man he shot had been given a 40 year prison sentence in 1995 for crimes in Oklahoma City that involved rape, robbery, torture and scalding, but he got out after serving only eight. He is now testifying against other robbers so he hasn't been sentenced for this crime yet.

The story can be found at; http://kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=124857
Surveillance pictures of a Tulsa store shooting
KOTV - 3/21/2006 10:10 AM - Updated 3/22/2006 4:42 PM

Tulsa robbery detectives hope someone recognizes the man who was shot Saturday during a robbery and seen lying on the ground.

Tulsa Police say the man who was shot and a second man was trying to rob the Homeland near 91st and Memorial Saturday evening, when a customer in line, shot one of the robbers.

Police say the customer was legally carrying a concealed weapon and the shooting is within the law. Detectives are now looking for the two robbery suspects. They believe the one who was shot in the chest is seriously injured and needs medical attention or could die.

Even though you can't make out the man's face, police hope someone recognizes his clothing and can point them in the right direction. You can call Crimestoppers at 596-COPS with any information.

The story can be found at; http://kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=100942
- Janq
 

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wow - nice pull




i have often wondered what "happens" to your firearm if involved in a situation like this


i always figured it become property of the state for some reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
In many states that is exactly what happens.
His case and situation is fortunate across the board.

In states like MA, CA, MD, NY, NJ and others had he been standing on their grounds he would be manditorily drawn up on charges to which he'd have to defend his use of deadly force. Even if the BG doesn't die. Yep....serious business. :|

Which is why I post these articles in this area, we folk gotta think about this stuff ahead of time with a serious deliberate mind just as dude advised.
Not to do so can be quite expensive be it your own life, that of another (e.g. as he mentioned innocents in the background), or worst 101% of your life savings & personal wealth.

Dude was very wise and showed excellent self control in _not_ shootng the guy a third time and in not approaching the down/injured but not stopped BG who retained a weapon but made no further effort to aggress and was attempting to flee. Had he shot dude a second time or engaged him with intent to disarm him and then the BG shot at him to which he returned fire (assuming he woudn't be hit), then that could be argued by a DA and a civil litigation attorney that the GG was no longer in danger and became the aggressor thus in the end murdering the BG who now becomes the 'victim'. We as citizensare empowered and legally allowed to use lethal to stop (!), not to kill. If stoppage of aggression can be/is accomplished without taking of life then we are expected to adher to and stay at that mode. Complex it is.
Serious business.

- Janq
 

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I was just thinking about this scenario and you read my mind Janq. I just read in my hometown newspaper this week that the local Subway in my town of >6000 had been robbed at gunpoint. This is the first I had ever heard of a store being robbed like that in recent memory, and had I not JUST been a subscriber on my 3rd day of receiving the paper, I would not have heard about it. Hmm. I was getting ready to make a thread about this very topic. WWYD?
 

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Ok, I will hypothetically set the scene. Subway is a 10'x30' store with counter on left side and 2 person tables lining the right side wall. BG comes in stands outside counter just pointing gun at cashier. You(I) am eating at one of the tables which would be behind him. I see the gun pointed at cashier and threatening her/his life. I have opportunity to draw and shoot BG. Would that be standard protocol or would you be up shit creek for shooting BG in back? How many shots do you immediately fire? Keep shooting until he's down? Drops gun? Where do you aim with plenty of time to do so because he is unaware of you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
DJ,

In Massachusetts and in my specific town/community whihc is very much anti-gun and well known for being pro-peace kumbaya, I'd be up shits creek no matter what I decide to do. We have a Subway here as well as and it is nearly the same in size & dimensions as what you describe.

If I draw and shoot at COM (center of his back) without forewarning then well dang, I'm a 'murderer'. I get an automatic, as per law, criminal case against the state.
If I shoot and he doesn't die but is paralyzed, see above and add to that a civil suit as well.
If I draw and make noise to catch his attention to which he turns toward me and shoot him as I train in the chest or face, then see the above.
If I sit quietly and let him do his business to take the cash with a sammich and Susie Cupcake complies _and_ Slim Shady rolls out happy with his clams, then I don't get arrested or have a criminal case against me or have the community talking shit about me & family or suffer having my piggy bank, kids future savings & life in general turned upside down and Subway is out several bucks while Susie is out one pair of panties.

In MA by our specific laws you must be in imminent and immediate fear of equivalent force injury (e.g. death!) in order to use lethal force. That means no shootng a guy who is punching another guy/gal becuase this state takes force disparity into account for the GG and the BG/possible victim too. I kid you not.
Yes the BG has placed a wepon to Susie's face but I don't know if it's a BB gun, toy gun, or even a loaded gun. What if he were just tryign to 'scare her' and had no intent to actually shoot her but to just leave us all unharmed. Why did he walk past me at the booth and leave me opportunity to choose to leave/escape? Was I myself at that time in immediate mortal danger when the BG had his back turned to me and outwardly (some would say obviously) ignoring me if even aware of my presence?
I can absolutely guarantee you this is what my neighbors and community members would say and think. The local paper whihc is very much liberal and shall we say Pollyanna wouldn't be any better to me. Those are the persons who would be called to judge me as a jury of my peers.
Oh, and I'm Black in a town that has less than 5% minotrities overall in a county that has IIRC just about 8% minorities who largely are concentrated in areas outside of here where it is cinsidered to be very unsafe and riddled with guns & bullet holes. Imagine me sitting in a courtroom with my whole life being examined. I'm a member of multiple shooting clubs. I've got multiple 'powerful weapons' (.45ACP) at home with a to completely know nothing jury a huge cache of ammo (~2K rounds including .22s), and I 'train' to shoot people including playing 'military like' games (e.g. paintball). People seriously would see things this way and I've seen it IRL in my own local paper played out just that way.
Oh and no doubt some eager beaver reporter or attorneys aid will be succesful in outing me personally as 'Janq' and will catalog every post I've ever made in regard to guns and self defense at OT, here, or anywhere...and spin my statements out of context in court or the press to work against me. This is all but guaranteed to happen.


You tell me, what should I do.
What would you do...if you were me with very much to lose and little to gain.

I don't know what I'd do.
There are so many variables.
What does dudes face look like...what was his demeanor...what did he say and how when he demanded the money...how was he holding the weapon...did he pay any attention to me?...am I alone or with my family...where are they in relatin to me?...does the BG have backup waiting outside...can I see them through the front window...can they see me?...

I don't know what I'd do but I'm pretty sure and have come to the personal conclusion that no matter what I do I very likely in this state will be at a loss win, lose, or draw. :(
With that known and said as a general rule for myself in regard to me being a CCWr, my responsibility is to me and my family as a primary. If that means someone else may have to take a loss in order for me to be home for dinner and fullfill my job role, then I won't like it but it is what it is.

As always mileage may and does vary widely for others if not yourself.

- Janq is not a cop
 

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i would draw one of my six Glock 22's on him and aim it at his head. "Drop it Johnny Jihad! CCWer on the premises. You don't want to try it. I am tactically trained and have over 10 hours of intense training!"
 

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Nose Nuggets said:
i would draw one of my six Glock 22's on him and aim it at his head. "Drop it Johnny Jihad! CCWer on the premises. You don't want to try it. I am tactically trained and have over 10 hours of intense training!"

:D
 

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I'll respond more when I have time, but our town/county is very much pro-gun/carry.


Our sheriff wears a gold plated 1911 on his hip at all times. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Nose Nuggets said:
i would draw one of my six Glock 22's on him and aim it at his head. "Drop it Johnny Jihad! CCWer on the premises. You don't want to try it. I am tactically trained and have over 10 hours of intense training!"
:lol:

I literally choked from laughing.
Nice play!

- Janq
 

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Nose Nuggets said:
i would draw one of my six Glock 22's on him and aim it at his head. "Drop it Johnny Jihad! CCWer on the premises. You don't want to try it. I am tactically trained and have over 10 hours of intense training!"
I nearly spit my drink through my nose when I read this part.

I'm glad I read the ghoul's post before this one.
 
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