[brucelee]

A great friend of the family was robbed at gunpoint last night... They took EVERYTHING including his vacuum cleaner and car! The broke in last night and forced him and his family to get onto the ground... It was a group of men, only one of them had a gun. (This was a few blocks away from my house).


Now for the question:


I always keep loaded firearms close by when I'm home... One downstairs and one upstairs... Typically something like a Glock 21 with M6 light/laser with hollowpoints (45acp)... Easy to hide and easy to get to.

Lets say those dudes broke into my house and caught me off guard and forced me onto the ground, etc, etc... When the gunman turns his back and I have an opportunity to grab my pistol (which is chambered and ready to go) and blast his ass in the back, what are my legal obligations? I know you're not supposed to shoot anyone in the back during a home defense situation, but when he has a gun and is robbing you, telling you that he'll kill you and your family, does that rule still apply? I wouldn't shoot him in the front because he'd have the advantage of shooting me first since I'd have to reach for my gun.

I'm in CA btw.

 

[DJ 9iron]

Being honest, I'd probably pull the trigger and hope for the best. (legal-wise)

 

[Nose Nuggets]

cant say i disagree there. although i cant add any true legal advice here, i would like to say i think it would be tough to find a jury that would find you guilty in the scenario you described.

 

[techwrtr2]

If his back is turned, you "theoretically" have opportunity to escape. That won't bode well if you have an anti-gun prosecutor to deal with.

 

[Janq]

Here in MA one would probably be looking at serious problems even as your scenario is justified.
In MA you are supposed to take every opportunity to retreat, as an individual.
With ones family splayed out on the floor though that arguement could be debated as being not possible to realistically accomodate.

Even still if the opportunity afforded itself to me and I've got my family there at risk, then well it's head shot.
If I'd have to remortgage or even sell my house to pay for my defense then so be it, my wife & kids come first before some dirt bags brains.

I'd maybe think on the fly to say something loud & unexpected like 'OMG what is that?!!' just to get him to turn my way, then bust him in the damn chest and face from a stooped at one knee position firing upward. It's difficult to be able to retreat when you yourself are grounded (!).

BTW bruce take note of my news post thats coming up in just a moment.
The situation will ring close to home for you.

- Janq

 

[DJ 9iron]

Damn straight Janq. If it comes down to knowing and securing the fact that your family is safe and sound, then the reprocussions from yourself taking offensive action is totally justified in my book.

The instant distraction idea is great too as to verify a shot in the front for later forensic review.

 

[Adler]

Pretty much here the law says its fine to blast him if he is armed and has threatened you with said arm. But to be safe, I would shout out to make him turn around before I shot his ass.....just for good measure.

 

[MrMcCrackin]

Here in MA one would probably be looking at serious problems even as your scenario is justified.
In MA you are supposed to take every opportunity to retreat, as an individual.
With ones family splayed out on the floor though that arguement could be debated as being not possible to realistically accomodate.

Even still if the opportunity afforded itself to me and I've got my family there at risk, then well it's head shot.
If I'd have to remortgage or even sell my house to pay for my defense then so be it, my wife & kids come first before some dirt bags brains.

I'd maybe think on the fly to say something loud & unexpected like 'OMG what is that?!!' just to get him to turn my way, then bust him in the damn chest and face from a stooped at one knee position firing upward. It's difficult to be able to retreat when you yourself are grounded (!).

BTW bruce take note of my news post thats coming up in just a moment.
The situation will ring close to home for you.

- Janq

this was just what i was thinkin - once i have the drop on them, make loud noise or something to get the attention of said badguys and blast away, even before they get all they way turned around


i wonder - i will have to run that by my attorney and see what they think, then the attorney at the gun club

i am sure this ? has come up time and time again


if its a real issue, move to TX or FL :lol:

 

[Adler]

I asked my sheriff who asked the DA in my area. Thats the best way to find out.

 

[robb]

Shoot him.

Then have someone else who was in the house (or who got there before the police) say they were standing/laying in the general area where he was, and he was threatening them. Make sure that their story does not place them anywhere in the area of spatter, as the investigators will then look for shadowing, or blood in the shower (or drain), if that person has none on them.

You have the right to defend family or guests in your domicile in this scenario.

 

[fatcat]

In Ga if you feel threatened at all you can shoot, same in FL forgot the name but it was passed not long ago.

If I lived some where I could not I would draw, point it at his back and say something to get him to turn around and as soon as he does blow him away...

 

[Janq]

Situation I had just a few minutes ago at my own home...

No time for details right now but just 10 minutes ago Mrs. Janq came in from walking the dog to tell me that some "strange" people were in our driveway and harassed her when she came by upon return from her walk with the dog & and the baby and told them to leave.
I was sitting on the couch in the living room reading the paper to my daughter when she came in looking shaken and mad to tell me this. Immediately I got up and went for the front door. Not 15 minutes prior I had taken my gun off for the day, I'd been out running errands all day and was at the range earlier as well, and put it in the safe. I thought to go get it but figured nah it's just propbably some college kids.
Wrong...

Some huge fat bitch and an immediately obvious to me mentally ill person (aka crazy white man!) with his bicycle were standing there on my property talking about "that woman" told us to leave! I rolled out and replied now I'm telling you to leave just as that woman my wife told you to do.
I looked to the fat bitch and said can I help you to which she replied; "No I can back my car out myself". She was driving a 90's generation Lincoln Towncar. So as she begins to get into her car she mumbled something toward me which I did not fully understand. Meanwhile the crazy bike guy is maybe 30' off of me and makes like he's going to start walking toward me as he now begins yelling at the top of his voice that I'm an asshole and mthat my wife is an asshole too (!). I think to myself damn, that crazy guy is going to rush me. So I blade myself to him and think okay all I've got is the folding knife in my front right pocket and there is a tree directly behind me where I tie off the dog. He takes a step toward me then stops to yell profanties at me and stuff about how the town owns 15' of my yard (wrong). He then truns and hops on his bicycle and rides off behind the fat bitch in her car.
My wife with our 5 mo. old in a baby carrier along with my 4 yr. old were standing in our vestibule window watching the whole thing unfold.

While this is still fresh in my mind below are some items that are in my mind:
* I live in a town where there are _alot_ of mentally ill and generally unstable people.
* I know from past experiences that crazy people are unpredictable and when riled very physically strong & durable. This guy was maybe 10 yrs. older than me (a wash), maybe 20 lbs heavier and an inch or two taller. He did not appear to have any weapons on him, but then neither did I to them. Assumption is fubar.
* The fat bitch was a tango too. Had he and I mixed it up she'd likely jump in and she outweighed me by a good 50% and was my height to boot. I could not fight both of them hand to hand at once. One would have to be disabled and quickly so that I could work on the other, just as quickly.
All my wife could do at that point if such a deal went down is to dial 911 and let the dog loose, which I'm not confident she'd have thought to do.
* I purposefully kept distance between myself and the two of them as I walked out. This was wise.
* I walked out the front door, the same door she went in through just seconds prior. That was unwie. I did not look out the window to see how many possible threats/problems I'd have to deal with. She had sais there were "people' as in multiple but I did not slow my roll enough to stop and look at what work I had in front of me. As well I should have come out via a side exit for benefit of surprise which is what I normally do. I'm not sure why I didn't do that this time. That was not smart (!).

I've got to go now as my daughter is calling me for dinner.
In closing though crap happens folks even in otherwise generally very safe areas. Further even when you are generally not a dumbass, you can still make and play dumbass moves even if it's just once...which is just enough to get you hurt.
I lucked out that dude did not charge me becuase then I'd be committed to handle him. If that hand had been forced then I'd not be posting about it right now. I'd be making a statement to the police as to why I cut his ass and stomped with shod feet the other, all up in front of my family in my own damn yard.

BTW loitering on private property is unlawful and if you are told to leave and refuse to do so then that becomes tresspass. I technically could call the cops on biker guy and press charges for assault (verbal) but I have no idea who this person is, where he went, or where he'd come from. Even describing how he looked is tough. White male, black curly hair & bear, very much unshaven look, dirty clothing, 6'3" +/-, approx. 190lbs. in clothing, rudty bike, bad teeth, loud mouth, bad attitude, nuts. Thats like 20% of the population here. :\

- Janq

 

[fatcat]

Why were your weapons in the safe... Should have had something out...

 

[Pre-diddy]

In Ga if you feel threatened at all you can shoot, same in FL forgot the name but it was passed not long ago.

If I lived some where I could not I would draw, point it at his back and say something to get him to turn around and as soon as he does blow him away...

Castle doctrine?



If the back is turned, what about a non-lethal shot?

 

[Balbino]

Recenly we had an ice cream shop robbed at gunpoint. One shot was fired into the ceiling. I hope this doesnt sound racist but in my city the black population is rather low. Id say less than 3%. The story in the paper said that 2 or 3 black males entered the store before the robbery took place. I guess they bought ice cream and were supposed to be customers. Then another black male entered and robbed the place at gun point. All the black people left at the same time and didnt stick around for the police to arrive. This would lead me to believe they were all in on the heist. So imagine if you were in the store with them. You couldnt simply pull a gun on the robber because one of the other "customers" might be watching his back.

 

[fatcat]

Castle doctrine?



If the back is turned, what about a non-lethal shot?

Why? So he can sue you? or even come back with friends?

 

[Gun-Nut]

Janq, Have you gone over the releasing the dog scenario, if shit should ever hit the fan?

 

[Janq]

Why were your weapons in the safe... Should have had something out...

FC,

A totally fine and reasonable question.
The answer is I was trying to obey to the letter MA law.

In this state ones weapon must be in the owners direct control even when in their own home (!) or on their land. What this means is no weapons, even unloaded weapons, may be left around the house unsecured (stored as locked) nor may ammo be kept as same. There are no exceptions.
Addititonally I'd removed my gear because I just felt not good horsing around with my 4 yr. old while armed. It just makes me feel uneasy so generally I don't carry when home playing with my children, nor at the dinner table. Corny maybe but it's my way.

This whole thing in MA with their law has really had me in a bind though toward storage of a weapon.
I've got cubby holes and high places all over the place easy to hide & store a pistol or even a shotgun. But, if by chance I ever had a police come by the house they would be allowed to request viewing of storage of my firearms. If I lie and say I only have less than what I really own...then I'm in trouble. Worst I just don't want to risk even the most remote chance that my child could find it and hurt herself. On the other hand though being locked/disabled makes gaining access to it quickly when I need it a chore.

My wife and I talked about what all happened today over dinner.
She asked what I told them to make them leave so quickly. I asked her what would she have done had I not been home, to which she respinded as I expected...she'd lock the doors and wait/hope for them to go away and if they did not then call the police. I asked and how long would she allow them to continue their tresspass before doing anything. She gave me no response.

What kind of persons give lip to a mom carrying a newborn and walking what is not a small dog when she asks them to leave her property as they are tresspassing? What thoughts are going through their mind to justify to themselves their actions, reaction, and making the active choice to refute her request, mock her, and stand ground on land not their own!

Why can't people in this world just act right.

- Janq

 

[Janq]

Janq, Have you gone over the releasing the dog scenario, if shit should ever hit the fan?

While discussing it tonight she flat out did not respond to my last question about calling the police. So sensing the timing was not optimal continue I let the discussion end their.
This will though be revisited because since we've been here we've had too many incidents of crap happening to not continue this discussion further.

I plan to renew the conversation in the next day or so and releasing the dog to aid me will be discussed.
At the time she had on the dog a Gentle Leader lead which covers his muzzle. He's unable to bark when wearing it muchless bite. This puts her at a distinct disadvantage while walking the dog. She reports to me that most people will back away from her when she's walking him (I get the opposite...people tend to approach to say hello). As well Thursday night while walking him she commented that our street is very dark as it has few streetlights. It old her I knew this and that when I walk him (always in the middle of the night) I _always_ take a flashlight with me. I've told her to do this many times in the past but of course you know how that goes...

- Janq

 

[DJ 9iron]

Man, just keep your head straight Janq. I hope you and yours the best to get the situations and planning done well.