[cholla]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post, but ive been lurking for a while. Ive recently been looking into purchasing a handgun for self defense and concealed carry. Over the past week ive narrowed it down quite a bit, and its come down to the HK P2000 SK in .40 and the SIG 239 DAK, also .40.

As im sure you all know, they are both great guns, but they each had a couple of negatives for me, that i wanted to get advice/feedback from more experienced people on.

HK

I had two problems with this gun. First the grip is just a little two short compared to the SIG. My hand just doesnt quite feel comfortable because of the lip on the bottom of the mag. The salesman told me that you can replace that part with a flush piece, so It seems to me that I can remedy that problem fairly easily.

Second, I dont like the magazine release on the HK. I have a lot of trouble pressing it without having to change my grip. The salesman showed me how he does it with his trigger finger rather than his thumb, but i still had trouble doing it that way. I think he had bigger hands than me, but im not sure. Is this something that I just need to practice, or is the grip too big for me? Ideally i would like to be able to drop the empty mag one handed without changing my grip. Are there companies that make after market replacements for the mag release?

SIG
With the SIG, most importantly i didnt like the trigger pull. compared to the HK it just didnt feel right for me. With the HK i really liked being able to stage (I think thats what its called)

Second, in overall size it is bigger than the HK. As far as concealability goes, i am tall and skinny, which as i understand it makes it more difficult to conceal a given pistol than a larger person.

Also given its larger size it still holds one less round than the HK. Along the same lines, the HK can use magazines from teh P2000 (12 rd), so I could carry one of those for a reload, and have a much greater overall ammo capacity than the SIG.


So, given these factors what do you think are the more important ones?

 

[Gun-Nut]

Did you look at the Sig 229? The reason I ask, is it is pretty small and comes in .40 also. Plus you can buy 12 rounders for it also.

HK should have their new HK45 coming out soon, which I believe will be followed by a .40.

 

[Nose Nuggets]

well shit man. i think the negatives on both are reason enough to not purchase that pistol.

first off, with the HK i would always try to find a replica of what you plan to carry. so in this case, see if you cant find one that has this flush mount piece before you buy one, and make sure it will remedy your problem. secondly, the first point is somewhat moot if you have trouble releasing mags with a single hand. this would drop off my list instantly as a self defence weapon if i was not 100% satisfied with my ability to use the weapon in less then optimal conditions.

sig:
trigger pull is a big factor in prolonged use of the weapon. the last thing you want to do is sell the gun after 1000 rounds because you simply cant stand the feel of firing it.


my suggestion would be to go fit your hand to a HK USP compact and see if that fits nice. it still has all those great positives that HK offerers in their weapons with a slightly skinnier grip that should give you the extra room to get those mags out. however, you might still experience the same dislike with the shortness of the grip. however, one of the things i do see often on the HK model pistols is the butt or base plate on the mags that essentially extends the grip

ups compact chambered in .40

however im not sure if thats a feature on all there pistols.

with all the pistols available in the world, you shoulden thave to make sacrafices like these for a self defense weapon. if its 'just another gun in the collection' thats fine. but you could potentially be putting your life or the lives of friends/family on the shoulders of this weapon.


welcome to the boards! your off to a great start with HK and SIG on your list.

 

[Ducman]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post, but ive been lurking for a while. Ive recently been looking into purchasing a handgun for self defense and concealed carry. Over the past week ive narrowed it down quite a bit, and its come down to the HK P2000 SK in .40 and the SIG 239 DAK, also .40.

As im sure you all know, they are both great guns, but they each had a couple of negatives for me, that i wanted to get advice/feedback from more experienced people on.

HK

I had two problems with this gun. First the grip is just a little two short compared to the SIG. My hand just doesnt quite feel comfortable because of the lip on the bottom of the mag. The salesman told me that you can replace that part with a flush piece, so It seems to me that I can remedy that problem fairly easily.

Second, I dont like the magazine release on the HK. I have a lot of trouble pressing it without having to change my grip. The salesman showed me how he does it with his trigger finger rather than his thumb, but i still had trouble doing it that way. I think he had bigger hands than me, but im not sure. Is this something that I just need to practice, or is the grip too big for me? Ideally i would like to be able to drop the empty mag one handed without changing my grip. Are there companies that make after market replacements for the mag release?

SIG
With the SIG, most importantly i didnt like the trigger pull. compared to the HK it just didnt feel right for me. With the HK i really liked being able to stage (I think thats what its called)

you want a gun that is comfortable in your hand, if you can replace the base pad then that good, if not, then the gun might never be comfortable.

If the trigger is not natural, then you will always be fighting it, trigger work will only go so far.

Shifting your grip to hit the mag release is not a big deal, just about every 1911 shooter has to, and it won't slow down a reload. you can learn to quick shift the gun and shift it back longer before you grab the next mag.

Don't stage the trigger, its a bad habit to get into. you need a smooth constant trigger pull that does not move the sights, if you stage the trigger, you will never learn this. If you learn the correct way from the start, then you will be able to shoot any type of trigger.

Also look at the SW M&P or 1911

 

[cholla]

Thanks for the input everyone, this is deffinatly helping look at things from a few new perspectives.

Gun Nut: I think the 229 would be a little large, but then again, ive never carried a concealed weapon before, so i dont know what's concealable and what isnt, but based on what others are saying about the trigger pull on the SIG, i dont think im going to get one. Can anyone recommend some max dimensions for concealability?

Regarding the HK45, based on the info ive found it looks like its not going to be well suited to concealed carry either.

Nose Nuggets: I will deffinatly try the usp compact. Looking at it online, it doesnt seem significantly bigger than the p2000 sk.

The salesman made it sound like a big deal that i had to break my grip in order to release the mag. I can do it one handed, i just have to shift the gun in my hand. If thats not such a big deal, then i think it would be the best choice providing the flush butt plate feels right. Ill have to find a way to try that out before I decide.

Ducman: Again, i think the SIG is out because of what everyone is saying about trigger pull. For the HK i think ill go back in and mess around with the p2000sk and the usp compact and see if i can get comfortable releasing the mag on either of them.

Regarding staging the trigger, Ill make sure to take some classes as soon as i purchase a gun in order to get off on the right foot.

I did check out the SW M&P, and it just didnt feel good in my hand.

 

[Gun-Nut]

In regards to grip, take a look at this link.
http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310&highlight=todd+jarrett

If you watch closely, you'll see him make some mag changes. I'm guessing he's probably a little more knowledgeable than the salesman you talked to.

Also take a look at this video. He's not Todd, but he's one hell of a shooter.
http://www.tigervalley.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=0

 

[Mach5]

Don't stage the trigger, its a bad habit to get into. you need a smooth constant trigger pull that does not move the sights, if you stage the trigger, you will never learn this. If you learn the correct way from the start, then you will be able to shoot any type of trigger.

Word!!!

 

[Adler]

The trigger pull is what most of us live or die by on accuracy. If you have not looked around at the Steyr offering I say you should. I use my M9 for conceal IWB and its very thin for a larger gun(4in barrel). It also has one of the better triggers I have seen on a defense pistol.

 

[cholla]

cool vid Gun Nut

Adler, im going to go to the store today, and ill check out what Steyr has to offer.

What do you guys think of .357 sig vs .40

 

[Gun-Nut]

Adler, correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the .40 pistols can be swapped out with a .357 barrel.(maybe all?)

I know it works on several Glocks, HK's, and Sigs.
I have a sig 229 in .40. I purchased a factory .357sig barrel, and can now shoot both.
They even use the same mags.

The factory barrel ran about $130-140.
So why not own both?

 

[Adler]

You are right many 357 SIG guns can be made 40S&W and the reverse is true. All that matters is that they have the same dimensions where they lock up. The only thing I reccomend is since the 357Sig is more "snappy" you may want to check with the maker of the gun and see if there is a difference in the recoil spring weight so you dont batter the gun to death.

 

[MrMcCrackin]

Adler, correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the .40 pistols can be swapped out with a .357 barrel.(maybe all?)

I know it works on several Glocks, HK's, and Sigs.
I have a sig 229 in .40. I purchased a factory .357sig barrel, and can now shoot both.
They even use the same mags.

The factory barrel ran about $130-140.
So why not own both?

i did the same for my g27 - the wifey got me a .357 sig barrel for xmas one year

its like having a show car and a go car in one! LOL

oddly i thought the .357 sig was less snappy as the .40 - errr, i guess it could have been the other way around too - dang it - gotta get some more .357 sig target ammo now!

 

[einzelherz]

The trigger pull is what most of us live or die by on accuracy. If you have not looked around at the Steyr offering I say you should. I use my M9 for conceal IWB and its very thin for a larger gun(4in barrel). It also has one of the better triggers I have seen on a defense pistol.

2nd on the steyr although i'd probably shoot for the S40 for a concealed pistol. 10 .40s and slightly smaller than the M. But i live in FL where if it prints on a Tshirt then you can see it

in defense of the Sig: I've never tried their DAK trigger (afaik) but their standard DA/SA has always been one of the nicest pistol triggers imo. the main problem with having the trigger feel being the deciding factor on a purchase is that sig has three types that i know of (SA, DA/SA, and DAK) and HK has more trigger groups than pistol models.... I wouldn't expect a gun shop to carry an example of each so finding the one that suits you can be a pain in the ass.

 

[MrMcCrackin]

i ordered my sig with the factory short trigger - niiiiiice and smoooooooth

 

[cholla]

Well, i ended up going with the HK P2000 SK in .40

I found a range here that rents HKs and SIGs so I was able to spend some time shooting each of them, and figuring out what i liked and didnt.

In the end the HK mag release wasnt a problem for me. I just needed to get used to it, and now its not an issue. The same goes for the size of the grip. Once i had spend some time with it I found that it felt fine.

Now i just need to get some night sights, a holster, and take some classes.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[MrMcCrackin]

congrats and good luck at class - keep practicing!

 

[Rivers]

Well, i ended up going with the HK P2000 SK in .40

In the end the HK mag release wasnt a problem for me. I just needed to get used to it, and now its not an issue. The same goes for the size of the grip. Once i had spend some time with it I found that it felt fine.

I also have a P2000SK / .40 / LEM / night sights and love it! One big change to consider is acquiring some P2000 or USPc magazines, the 10-rd capacity. Add the HK "X-Grip" to those when used on the SK. That increases the handgrip nearly 3/4" and really enhances the handling and control.

In critical concealed carry situations, you can still use the standard magazine for a 9 + 1 capacity. When you can afford the extra grip length, you get a better handling gun with a 10 + 1 capacity.

 

[James]

ah my first post

for the USPC.40's they can not be convereted over to .357 since the Mag doesnt fit the .357

while the Sig P229 can be convereted into a .357, the mag will fit both the .40 and the .357 rounds

I personally have a HK USPC .40S&W and im looking at a Sig P229 since it felt great in my hands and i was able to nail almost every target i shot at 3/4 down the range

 

[Edd]

Can anyone recommend some max dimensions for concealability?

Whatever you can get away with.

I conceal a full size 1911 and it does not print at all. I use a leather in the waistband holster on my strong side. I accomplish this by using a holster with a 15 degree forward cant so the grip does not protude past my hip. This keeps the grip pressed firmly against my side. That along with the slim profile of a 1911 makes it very concealable.

That being said I would definitely look at leather IWB holsters for concealment.

Hope this helps.

 

[Adler]

I have carried my Taurus 92, Stoeger/Beretta Cougar 8040, and my Steyr M9 all IWB without printing. I use IWB holsters from highnoonholster.com