HIgh speed but no range what is happening?

1241 Views 8 Replies 4 Participants Last post by Janq, Mar 22, 2006

Jeremy

Discussion Starter · Mar 21, 2006

A couple buddies of mine are on a H R T unit, and they ask me to come play with their unit at their training facility and try to help them with some "issues" their encountering more and more with rookies. I was a bit confused becuase I'm not a Pro doorknocker by any means. I'm a mid-close to long range longarms guy. But 3 days in their facility sounded fun and interesting. So I pack my truck and went.

We spent most of saturday in their shoot shack, after a litle time on the warm up range. It was impressive watching them maneuver through the situations. They weren't the fastest unit in the world but they did it right and no stray shots, even towards the end of the day with the floors cover in shell casings to make things difficult as hell they were very efficient.

Sunday we moved out to their urban/ rural area and things went to hell. After the way they performed in the shack, I was expecting similar results here, I was just plain shocked. The same guys that never missed in the confines and chaos of a building couldn't hit shit at ranges beyond 50yds, literally 1 good hit for every 15 rounds fired. I couldn't believe what I nwas seeing. No trigger control, fire disapline, pretty much spray and pray. And they send these guys to H R T??????? can you say liability? They'd be better off with a bunch of ******** with hunting rifles.

I straight up told my bud get these guys on a range, you need to drill and drill and drill trigger control, disapline and sight alignment and longer ranges on silohutes. they don't need to be Carlos Hathcock but a bunch of Barnie Fife's is just asking for trouble.

Where did all the riflemen go? Most of these guys are my age but i don't know their backgrounds so I'm guessing they're city boys who never held a firearm before police training. I don't understand how these punks have the balls to be HRT when their as likely go kill an innocent as they are a BG at a distance over 50yds. I wouldn't want to be in the same county when these guys get called up. I guess they either know some1 or think it's just a big game. This ain't playstation you only get 1 life. It's scary if these are the best the police have to offer what the hell are the other guys like.

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Janq

· #2 · Mar 21, 2006

{Access Memory/conversion subroutine/English...}

IIRC 1 yd. is just over 3 feet
50 yards would then be something in the range of 150 ft.

I've been watching as of recent a show tracking a Dallas SWAT team with their own training and actual misson work.
Not once have they needed a rifleman or even a sniper out beyond 150 ft.
Jeremy not knowing what state or town you're in but if it isn't some large metroplex like NYC, DC, or LA I just don't see how being a longer range qualified shooter could be of good use in training time or materials.
In a town or small city toward an HRT, SWAT or STOP (Mass.) involved situation the likely hood of them not being able to get within a 50 yd. terminal range would seem to be way out there in probability. Yes they could be better shots of course but at 50 yds. in most places that are not huge metroplexes that kind of distance would be equivalent to two or even three town or city blocks.

Don't lose all faith in your guys team.
Out to what range would they need to train anyway, a half mile, mile, 3 miles? Eventually you get to a point for a given locale where the odds of such an occurence coming up just don't support the training need.
Likely if those boys are outside their effective range they'll just work their way in closer to negate that problem.

- Janq

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Ben

· #3 · Mar 21, 2006

50 yards though? That's pretty pathetic. I could train a 10 year old girl to shoot an M16/M4 fairly accuratly out to 50 yards.

Sounds like they spend all their time training in the shack and use those same techniques when they get out to the longer range outdoor courses.

Marine Corps trains to 500 yards iron sights FTW

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Janq

· #4 · Mar 21, 2006

Ben said:
50 yards though? That's pretty pathetic. I could train a 10 year old girl to shoot an M16/M4 fairly accuratly out to 50 yards.

Sounds like they spend all their time training in the shack and use those same techniques when they get out to the longer range outdoor courses...

Agreed 50 yards isn't all that far or hard.

But if it's middle of nowheresville or some supporting town near by (how often do HRT members enlist citizens to go on training events with them in your town/city?) then likely training out to that distance is largely irrleveant to real world local conditions.
I bet their town FD doesn't have frogmen trained for deep water recovery either, but the LA and NY fire departments do.

- Janq

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Jeremy

Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 22, 2006

Janq,
I understand what you're saying about wasted training. Most of their call up are for close range doorknocking stuff, but in that area it's just as likely to be called to a rural area in pa or ny. I just think they should be able to hit their target out to 100yds fairly consistantly.

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Ducman

· #6 · Mar 22, 2006

What long distance training will do is show improper techinque regarding trigger control, sight picture and presentation.

These problem become glaringly evident at distance.

Proper long distance training will only approve the CQ training

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Janq

· #7 · Mar 22, 2006

Jeremy said:
...but in that area it's just as likely to be called to a rural area in pa or ny. I just think they should be able to hit their target out to 100yds fairly consistantly.

No doubt, again I have no idea what area they're in.
Training is applicable to ones area.
To be an HRT team with no skills beyond 50 yds. I'd figure okay, they don't see that kind of action too much if ever.
If they do though well then taxpayers within that community need to be told and folks should be concerned.
Referring to the guys as Barney Fife ( :lol: ) is scary.

- Janq

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Jeremy

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 22, 2006

That's the issue, the training regimine used by big city units isn't totally compatible for units that deploy into rural areas as often as in urban areas. NYPD swat for instance covers mainly city call ups that take place in a building or across a street maybe 2 in close confines of buildings. These guys on the other hand cover a 100 mile radius if not farther everything from city street to a farm house in the middle of no where. A pissed off farmer with his scoped 30-06 deer rifle taking shots at you from 80yds across an open field/ yard or whatever is a lot different than serving a high priority warrant in a city appartment complex.

When you get into rural areas distances grow and things get more dangerous, not only for HRTor SWAT but for your average beat cop also. I'll have to see if I can find the article with the exact numbers, in rural areas a cop is wounded in 1 out of 3 incidents of shots being fired and 1 out of 5 a cop is killed. They're aren't a many incidents in rural areas but if your going to be sent into rural areas you need to treat things differently.

Firearms are common place in rural areas, most households have several and the average person is experience with firearms and is a average shot or better with their favorite hunting rifle which is normally 25 cal or larger, 30 cal being most common. So on a call up you after a guy whose a good shot and is using a scoped high power rifle that he knows how to use, Not some gangbangers with uzi's doing spray and pray.

As for me saying "long distance" I'm not talking 500yds or anything like that, the need for that range is highly unlikely even for their shooter. I'm saying 50yds to 100yds maybe 125. For a city unit 50yds is enough is most cases in rural areas it isn't.

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Janq

· #9 · Mar 22, 2006

Your pissed farmer scenario is where an armored tactical truck comes into play.
I'd assume your towns HRT team has one of these if not then definitely the state police.

- Janq

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