[Janq]

As reported by The Herald:

Guns on campus OK'd by Arizona Senate

By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services

Published: Saturday, June 27, 2009 2:16 AM MST

PHOENIX — Saying it will make people safer, state senators voted Friday to let people with concealed weapons permits carry them onto college and university campuses where they are now forbidden.

The 15-6 vote on the provision in HB 2439 came after backers said they believe that having people who are licensed by the state to have weapons should cut down on the number of massacres that occur on campuses. And Sen. John Huppenthal, R-Chandler, said that has happened in Arizona.

He did not refer by name to the 2002 incident at the University of Arizona where three instructors at the College of Nursing were slain by student Robert S. Flores Jr. who then turned the gun on himself.

But Huppenthal said the evidence shows that it makes sense, from a safety standpoint, to let people carry guns.

“The states that have concealed carry (laws) have statistically significant smaller mass shootings,’’ he said.

Huppenthal said he would not support guns on public school campuses, saying Arizona has no history of massacres on those campuses.

“The situation is different in our universities,’’ he said.

“We’ve had a mass shooting in our universities,’’ Huppenthal continued. “We sort of have a track record of not being safe in our universities.’’

And he said that, based on the research, allowing those who have concealed weapons permits to bring them onto campuses would mean “our universities would be safer.’’

University of Arizona lobbyist Greg Fahey said his school opposes allowing anyone to have guns on campus. And Fahey said he’s not convinced that rule should be waived for those with permits to carry concealed weapons even though they have undergone background checks, training in state laws and been shown to be proficient in the use of the gun.

“Our chief of police and the police of all three universities have consistently said that their experience is that having people with guns is just more of an invitation to have accidents, to have problems,’’ Fahey said. “And they don’t want anyone who’s not a sworn officer being armed on campus.’’

But Huppenthal said he’s not convinced that students and faculty are safer with gun-free campuses.

The senator said his requests for information from universities shows “they haven’t done any careful analysis’’ of the crimes. And what they have done, he said, only involves those crimes on campus.

“But the truth is, there’s a large number of rapes of coeds as they leave campus and they go to their home,’’ Huppenthal said. He said these women are forced to leave any guns at home — and leave themselves vulnerable while walking to class — because current rules prohibit weapons on campus.

The story can be found at; http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/06/27/news/doc4a45c464a276c785939623.txt

- Janq

 

[Nose Nuggets]

And he said that, based on the research... “our universities would be safer.’’

Well holy shit balls, its amazing what you can find out if you don't mind reading factual information instead of reference wild imaginings and baseless opinion.

“Our chief of police and the police of all three universities have consistently said that their experience is that having people with guns is just more of an invitation to have accidents, to have problems,’’ Fahey said.

Quite the assumption. Care to reference a source or two?

“And they don’t want anyone who’s not a sworn officer being armed on campus.’’

Then you should fire these idiots and hire people less concerned with retaining needless posts for officers at universities and more concerned with what is actually good for the people.

 

[Chuck33079]

I'm all for more places to ccw, but the vast majority of college students do not need to be packing heat. When I was going to school a few years ago, I went to a school in downtown Houston. The parking lot was right next to a major train depot. There were a lot of aggressive vagrants in the area, not the harmless crazies you normally encounter. I had purchased a few less-than-lethal weapons and was advised by one of the campus police to ignore the sign and carry a pistol anyway. Still, most of the knuckleheads around me would be a danger to the public if armed.

I'm just torn on the issue. Maybe if campus security was worth a shit I would have felt better about things. Unfortunately, they were the 300 pound lazy variety. I found some stolen property of mine on a car at school. I gave them the license plate, four pictures of the car and the number of the parking pass. The owner of the car rolled over on the thief in less than ten minutes. The property was impounded, where it remains today. The thief is still "looking for the receipt" according to U of Houston's finest. This happened November '05. These are not the cops I want protecting me.

 

[Nose Nuggets]

your anxiety is common, but mostly irrational. there is nothing stopping "the vast majority of college students" from carrying now if they where inclined to do harm. and even now that it is legal i doubt everyone with a ccw will carry. plus, its not giving all students a pass to carry irregardless of laws; they have to have to have a ccw and maintain it.

my local PD is really good, but that does not change he basic fact that I am the one ultimately responsible for my own defense.

 

[Prod]

I'm all for more places to ccw, but the vast majority of college students do not need to be packing heat. When I was going to school a few years ago, I went to a school in downtown Houston. The parking lot was right next to a major train depot. There were a lot of aggressive vagrants in the area, not the harmless crazies you normally encounter. I had purchased a few less-than-lethal weapons and was advised by one of the campus police to ignore the sign and carry a pistol anyway. Still, most of the knuckleheads around me would be a danger to the public if armed.

I'm just torn on the issue. Maybe if campus security was worth a shit I would have felt better about things. Unfortunately, they were the 300 pound lazy variety. I found some stolen property of mine on a car at school. I gave them the license plate, four pictures of the car and the number of the parking pass. The owner of the car rolled over on the thief in less than ten minutes. The property was impounded, where it remains today. The thief is still "looking for the receipt" according to U of Houston's finest. This happened November '05. These are not the cops I want protecting me.

The vast majority of college students have no desire to CCW. The only people I knew in college with CCW permits were those who could handle the responsibility. A 21 y/o attending college is no different than a 21 y/o working at Taco Bell. Why should the guy at Taco Bell get to carry everyday but the guy at college can't?

 

[mattxander12]

^^^ spoken for truth. The person would still have to go through all the bullshit to get a license, fork up the money to buy the gun, and usually if they do all that then they have enough sense to train with it and buy proper accessories to utilize it. There's those who get CCW permits just to throw a gun in their car and then there are those who carry it on their person. To make that kind of legal commitment takes thought and will power to do on a daily basis. Most of my college friends wouldn't do so. Not to mention most have the mentality that all people are drunk frat boys with a grudge, so look down on carrying. So what does that leave you? A higher chance of a responsible CCW permit holder carrying on a college campus, then a dumbass doing so.

 

[Janq]

Keep in mind folks, Joe Blow fresh out of highschool drunken frat boy cannot lawfully purchase from a dealer a handgun being under 21 yrs. of age per federal law, much less carry a gun on their person.

Further the vast majority of states that at all allow citizen concealed or open carry limit as much to the age of 21 and older.
This is the case in Arizona as specific to this thread...

Arizona State Legislature

13-3112. Concealed weapons; qualification; application; permit to carry; certificate of firearms proficiency; training program; program instructors; report; applicability; violation; classification

...
E. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to an applicant who meets all of the following conditions:

1. Is a resident of this state or a United States citizen.

2. Is twenty-one years of age or older.

Source - http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03112.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

A person who is 21 years of age is generally a college senior if not a graduate student.
Even if they are lesser in position, such as a freshman, a 21 yr. old is 21...and is not a child/minor.

Additionally we are sending out 18 yr. olds to fight foreign wars and operate all manner of destructive as well as lethal armaments including carry as open and concealed of lethal arms in and and amongst our own people, as in foreign lands, and as among our allies too. Nobody has a problem with that and those persons making the individual and very adult _choice_ to engage themself in a binding contract to do such activities.

But have that same person be in the US and at that same age make an application to _request_ ability to exercise a right to take on means to defend themself and poof it's a huge problem within folks mentality.
Even as nobody has a problem here with allowing a same aged person to possess a drivers license so as to operate _any_ motorvehicle from a scooter to a commercial truck on public roads at any time they desire.

Back to college students are not the only people on college campuses.
Colleges depend on student staff, non-student workers, and most every college I've ever seen has had itself smack dab surrounded and amongst the general public areas as well and are not sequestered into private access areas far from the general public and real world. This includes not just the main campus buildings but campus housing, campus parking lots, campus support buildings, administrative offices and even in my zone the campus credit union building which is located over 2 miles from the main campus well into the general public zone (UMass Credit Union building where associated persons and employees commonly do their banking).

I too used to think in the past ehh 18 yr. olds do not need guns and gun permits. It was irrational thinking just as pointed out by NN and others above. I reanalyzed my position and 'feelings' toward as much, and discovered that I myself was being and thinking in an irrational way.

But bottomline that concern is moot anyway as the state law in AZ dicates very clearly that a person must be age of 21.
Being a 21 yr. old in college does not make a person more weak minded than being a 21 yr. old who is not in college.

- Janq

 

[Janq]

Additionally just because a given state allows concealed carry anywhere does not mean at all it has become the law that persons _must_ apply for such a license and/or must carry. No different than a state supporting hunting licenses does not mean that all persons must apply for said license and/or must hunt. The thought is silly.

Further we now have over 20 yrs. of state based concealed carry license history and license holder history behind us.
Two common misconceptions and assumptions have very much been proven as based on reality to be untrue:

1. A very small minority of the population will choose to actually carry (where no permit is required by state law) and/or apply for said permit/license to carry in states where as much is required.
In fact the average has been just about 2% of the population as based on permit/license applications submitted, never mind that not 100% of those who apply are actually accepted by any given state.

2. Of those persons who either do carry or keep a firearm within state laws be it with or without requirement of a permit/license and be the firearm kept within their home, carried concealed on their person, or in states where lawful carried openly on their person (for example VA)...the number of unlawful acts aka 'crime' as committed by such persons involving a gun in specific of any sort be it displayed or fired has been actively tracked by most every state that supports citizen carry and the stats are publicly available most often posted on state police websites.
The numbers of crimes as committed by these persons are generally less than a percent against the population as a whole as compared to state licensed/permitted holders all of whom are known and data based by the state.
Further in TX and FL being the two states where folks supposed that blood would be running in the streets. No such events have occurred. Again crimes there by permit holders as relative to the total population have been in the less than a percent range, so say individual states own data.

So bottom line make rational analysis as based on facts rather than irrational assumptive positioning as based on supposition and emotion, or what you may have seen on TV, in the movies, or even purported by the very often biased and incomplete reports of the media.

Oh and as to my points above in regard to real world stats, do not take my word for it.
Do your own homework just as you should for anything.

For example here are the not at all difficult to locate stats as provided by the state of Florida per it's Division of Licensing...

Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
October 1, 1987 - May 31, 2009

Applications Received: 1,550,784
Licenses Issued: 1,520,944
Applications Denied: 9,770
Licenses Valid: 581,325

Licenses Revoked: 4,789
Crime Prior to Licensure 520
Crime After Licensure 4,072
--Firearm Utilized-- [167]
Other 121

Source - http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

- Janq

 

[mattxander12]

That's pretty compelling evidence in FL, that only 167 crimes with a firearm by licensee's have been committed in over 20 years! Yet put these licensed individuals on a campus, and surely mass murders will happen [/sarcasm].

Some States don't quite follow the above "21 year old" trend. I'm sure there's only a few, Indiana being one of them. For us here, you still have to be 21 y/o to buy a handgun, but you do not have to be 21 to own one (if gifted by a parent with written consent for instance). Also, you only have to be 18 to apply and receive a Handgun permit (IN makes no distinction between concealed or open carry). So there is a way to be under 21 and legally carry a handgun in IN. Again, this would be a huge hassle to do and few would do it.

It IS a hassle to get a permit (took me months of correcting paper work, tracking down people to get stuff done). It IS a hassle to continually train. It isn't comfortable compared to not carrying. It's not for everyone. It won't affect anyone either. You hear of people citing it'll distract classrooms, or make people fearful etc. Yet know one should know until/if that time comes. You don't need a pencil sharpener until your pencil is dull but most classrooms have one, and you shouldn't need a CCW permit holder in a classroom until a gunman comes in, but classrooms should have one.