[Yeager]

Well, Come september 11th I'll legally be able to buy a Long arm. so get ready for a lot of illogical even stupid questions..

So far I've got 3,500 saved up and I know of a gun store locally that has some decent stuff according to friends who've been.

This being my first time I'm not quite sure what all I'll need to complete the purchase and not leave the owner nervous or sour about a 18 year old walking out of the store with a "Evil Black Rifle" (more precisely a AKS-74). I'm just pretty much nervous about the whole damn thing and graduating from a public school didn't help one bit. I got indoctrened into the whole "Guns are bad" crowd and up untill a year ago I would cringe at the thought of handling a real firearm. I'm also the type of person who dosen't like to look someone straight in the eye, something I picked up growing up don't ask..

I've never shot a real rifle before with the exception of a single shot .410 shotgun. And I only shot that 4 times.

I also have err.. some fear of bullets thats ilrational at best. I'm always afraid of one going off in my pocket or anotherone clanging into one and it going off. to give you a general idea I get in a cold sweat when I handle the 4 30-06 shells I have on my desk

I've also read into all my local laws regarding firearms via NRA.org, it claims that I can legally buy a handgun in this state at 18 but I'm still unsure. It also says that nobody shall have in possession a SBR even when registered with the ATF and all the taxes are paied ect so I'm taking a tape measure to the store to make sure what I buy is legal.

Umm lets see oh yes I'm also kind of finikey about putting parts onto a gun, I'm used to the whole airsoft deal (don't force it on it will break) mentallity. but from videos I've seen of them cleaning AKs and FALs it seems to take quite some force to get the bolt out and put bullets in the magazine. is this correct or will I end up with powder burns over 1/3rd my body if I try to use too much force with a bolt or handle.

oh yes and as for the gun choices I've found quite a few that I like. However I DO NOT want an AR-15, I've herd WAY too many bad things about them

FN PS-90 (Money is no object here, I plan to start reloading as soon as I can)
FN FS-2000
H&K G-3 CETME varient
AKM varient
Ruger 10/22 with the muzzlelite stock or the 5.56 version of it I beleive its called the mini 14/AC-556?
the ruger AC-556 (umm the mini 14 with the folding stock and scout scope mount)
FN FAL (perferably full stock with the buffer tube inplace) :???:
Yugo SKS (however I hear most are in cosmoline thats hard to clean off?)
Remington 870 12 guage with a 8 shell extention and the barrel at full choke
M1 Garand (or the tanker model if they have it)

So I'm covered on long arms, if he dosent have one he'll most likely have the other.

As for sidearms if I'm legally premitted I'm thinking about these

TT-33 ( I've herd the safteys on these guns are NOT to be relied on, any input?)
Mauser Broomhandle (would like the 9x19 version that the chinamen used)
Walther P38
Browning Hi-power (I REALLY want the C&R version that can legally have the shoulder stock attached, however I'll have to check this out with a lawyer and my local Sheriff to see if the C&R status trumps state law or not :/)
VP-70
H&K MK23


Any Advice and Guidence is really appreicated, Especially with person to person interaction with the dealer.

 

[fatcat]

Well, truely you should start with something a bit less complex, a bolt action rifle or a ruger 10/22 before you move up. The fear you have of the guns is not uncommon but it is something you will need to get over before going and throwing down a few thousand on real rifles.

As for the laws many of them are hard to break but not all...

this mainly is about the "Parts count" with rifles with legal US made parts.
(Anyone know a good link about that?)

Ruger 10/22 with the muzzlelite stock or the 5.56 version of it I beleive its called the mini 14/AC-556?
the ruger AC-556 (umm the mini 14 with the folding stock and scout scope mount

The muzzlelite aftermarket stocks for the rifles, From what I did with on a friends mini-14 them with one I did not like them... Orca had one I think on a 10/22 so you can ask him.

The 5.56mm ver of the is just a drop in Mini-14 put in them an AC-556, AC-556K and AC-556GB are all types of select fire mini-14's

As you said up there
the ruger AC-556 (umm the mini 14 with the folding stock and scout scope mount
I got that same rifle! with the scout mount and the side folding stock.


You say you hear to much about the AR-15 and M4's with trouble?

*Sigh* they will lever lose that had name, I ahve had three AR-15's and NEVER have trouble with them, I swap parts forget to clean them forget to change parts and use shitty reloads and old military ammo and old mags and get a burp the about once every 5 mags run I DONT UNDERSTAND IT!!!! so, sorry if I dont see where you anti AR guys are comeing from..

Sorry for the spelling I dont have time to edit and stuff I will when I get back.

 

[Yeager]

Well, truely you should start with something a bit less complex, a bolt action rifle or a ruger 10/22 before you move up. The fear you have of the guns is not uncommon but it is something you will need to get over before going and throwing down a few thousand on real rifles.

As for the laws many of them are hard to break but not all...

this mainly is about the "Parts count" with rifles with legal US made parts.
(Anyone know a good link about that?)




The muzzlelite aftermarket stocks for the rifles, From what I did with on a friends mini-14 them with one I did not like them... Orca had one I think on a 10/22 so you can ask him.

The 5.56mm ver of the is just a drop in Mini-14 put in them an AC-556, AC-556K and AC-556GB are all types of select fire mini-14's

As you said up there
the ruger AC-556 (umm the mini 14 with the folding stock and scout scope mount
I got that same rifle! with the scout mount and the side folding stock.


You say you hear to much about the AR-15 and M4's with trouble?

*Sigh* they will lever lose that had name, I ahve had three AR-15's and NEVER have trouble with them, I swap parts forget to clean them forget to change parts and use shitty reloads and old military ammo and old mags and get a burp the about once every 5 mags run I DONT UNDERSTAND IT!!!! so, sorry if I dont see where you anti AR guys are comeing from..

Sorry for the spelling I dont have time to edit and stuff I will when I get back.

My fear with guns is not about the gun itself but rather whats coming out of the gun. (again with the bullet fear ) I guess that can be good in some way but as I said I was brought up with very little contact with real firearms (Save the numerous break barrel shotguns hanging around the house). and Like I said in another thread I'm into airguns/airsoft , and I will mention that I did have some problems adjusting to several of them ( Big things like the CAW Revolving gas launcher and my semi auto gas shotgun) but I got over my shakes after firing both of them a few times. I hope I can overcome firearms using the same method.

I def. have a Ruger 10/22 on the list, the only reason I want to drop all my money into assault weapons now however is because of the whole election thing coming up in november and the potiential of another AWB. So my reasoning was its better to be armed now than not be armed latter (that is if they make it like the CA bill where you cant X-fer assault weapons). As for the muzzelite stock I've held a replica and it feels very comfortable while shouldered. The toy look I can get over but if theres anything else wrong with it please do tell.

You mean 922R that states that every imported "assault" weapon after XX/1989 cannot have over 10 forign parts on it? I'm aware that some guns are harder to make 922R compliant than others (SKS, Nagant) but wasn't aware that it was that bad. I'm hoping AKs arn't in the same boat (as I plan to buy an ARSENAL brand gun)

You have the Mini-14 with the side folder? Cool! I first saw one on the A-team back when they we're re-running it on the TNT channel! I love the wood/metal/polymer mix thats on that gun. I assume that it takes STANAG compatable Magazines?

The AR-15s I don't like because I've been told that they spit gas back into your eye and tend to jam fairly often, I've also been reading up on the rifle itself and found out that it likes to "shit" back on its "food". Which apparently builds up carbon which is extremely hard to take off. I guess personal taste comes into play too, I've never been a fan of the AR-1r


Note: sorry for the grammer or lack there of, and organization of the paragraphs.. I'll edit it later

 

[fatcat]

Never had the AR spit gas back into my eye, but I have seen gas buster systems for sale. If you do like the look of the AR but dont like the fact that it "Shits where it eats" you can get a gas piston upper for it, same as the AK.

You can do ANYTHING with AR's, take them from .17 up to 50BMG from single shot to belt fed and just about anything else...

ok ok ok... Im the AR pusher on this site the AR disigns are not the best if your shooting 2000 rounds without cleaning but your ok with with 500 to 1000 You will never run out of parts for the rifle [{("CHEAP AMMO")}] and you can do anything...

ok im done! I was just so flabergausted that there was no AR-15 on your list!!!

about the mini-14 yea, here it is before I got the scout red dot mount on it with stock folded.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/fatcat/P8210069.jpg

 

[ORCA]

The muzzlelite aftermarket stocks for the rifles, From what I did with on a friends mini-14 them with one I did not like them... Orca had one I think on a 10/22 so you can ask him.

The muzzlite bullpup stock system for the 10/22 isn't that good of a system. Non adjustable sights and you have to fully disassemble the body to do any sort of work. Look at our 10/22 stock system post for other ones. (The RB Precision 1's are great!)

http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818

I agree with Cat on the fact you should work up to the higher caliber/more complex firearms. This really all depends on where you live though. In my case, Orange County/So Cal doesn't have any local rifle ranges, so I can go for years w/o firing them. I have a local indoor gun range, but can't shoot anything above handgun calibers. So my poor rifles sit on the shelf.

It's even a pain to shoot and clean my firearms, so airsoft and IPSC have become and much more fun/economical option. It made more sense for me to spend some $$ and build an 100ft indoor airsoft target range at my shop, then for me to buy another real handgun.

Anyway back to your wishlist. You ever see a guy named Robert Silver's collection? The guy has a bunker on his property filled with mutliple variants of many different firearms. He's featured on at least 2 outta 4 Gunner DVD's http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=267&products_id=2438 Since your list of guns is all over the place. You may want to find his site. It kinda puts the "I wanna own all these guns" in perspective.

But my advice stands as with airsoft guns. Test fire w/e you're thinking of buying before you purchase. There are shooting ranges, annual mg shoots, manfacturer sponsored range days and related events. Rather then going by "What you hear", you can make your own decisions.

Oh and Cat! The Hannibal Smith R0xx0rs!!! +100

 

[fatcat]

We know yeager this is not what you wanted to hear lol... but you did want advice from people who have been there. Its easyer to start with rifles that are easy to understand then move up.

Yes, the A-team the the best show ever! thats why I got that rifle!

 

[Yeager]

The muzzlite bullpup stock system for the 10/22 isn't that good of a system. Non adjustable sights and you have to fully disassemble the body to do any sort of work. Look at our 10/22 stock system post for other ones. (The RB Precision 1's are great!)

http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818

I agree with Cat on the fact you should work up to the higher caliber/more complex firearms. This really all depends on where you live though. In my case, Orange County/So Cal doesn't have any local rifle ranges, so I can go for years w/o firing them. I have a local indoor gun range, but can't shoot anything above handgun calibers. So my poor rifles sit on the shelf.

It's even a pain to shoot and clean my firearms, so airsoft and IPSC have become and much more fun/economical option. It made more sense for me to spend some $$ and build an 100ft indoor airsoft target range at my shop, then for me to buy another real handgun.

Anyway back to your wishlist. You ever see a guy named Robert Silver's collection? The guy has a bunker on his property filled with mutliple variants of many different firearms. He's featured on at least 2 outta 4 Gunner DVD's http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=267&products_id=2438 Since your list of guns is all over the place. You may want to find his site. It kinda puts the "I wanna own all these guns" in perspective.

But my advice stands as with airsoft guns. Test fire w/e you're thinking of buying before you purchase. There are shooting ranges, annual mg shoots, manfacturer sponsored range days and related events. Rather then going by "What you hear", you can make your own decisions.

Oh and Cat! The Hannibal Smith R0xx0rs!!! +100

ok, I guess I'll buy a bolt action rifle and the 10/22 first then move on up if theres any news of a potiential ban. Afterall the 10/22 isn't that expensive neither are .22 or .17 bolt guns. I guess if it came down to it I could use my Maruzen M870 and VSR-10 to practice good habbits with and just buy the 10/22. Range time isn't a problem as I live on 3 acres in the middle of no where. our neighbors shoot rifles and handguns all the time and to the back of our lot and theirs is a giant wood pile that was dumped by a now defunct saw mill.

I already have 2 airgun ranges set up and I'm now digging a range area for firearms.

so far I've dug 8 feet down into the hill and I've started a hole in which I will stack cinder blocks to stop any bullets that get past the first 5 feet of red clay. :twisted:

Nope never herd of the guy, but I think I'll buy that DVD just to see the room full! on the flipside have you herd of the buddy hilton collection? I seem to run into his stuff on google all the time.

Taking down the stock to do major work isn't a problem for me , I probably won't do anything but clean the gun anyways. when I start posting pictures of my airsoft guns you'll find out what kind of gun person I am, No RIS Rails all over the place no overly done up rifles just plain full metal rifles and handguns with internal upgrades.

Sights won't be a problem either as I have a plethoria of AR-15 mounts and scopes from airsoft of corse (before you say something theyre all from real steel manufacturers, Colt, Tasco, Trijicon, Aimpoint, ARMS ect).

The only problem with using airsoft guns for seeing if you like X gun is that most airsoft guns mimic guns many civillians will never get to touch. The only close civillian copy guns I can think of in airsoft are the M16 series, G3 Series, and AK series. And I don't know of any machine gun shoots within 200 miles of me but I'll keep on the look out.



sorry for the lack of org. skills I'm typing this on the go.

 

[ORCA]

Taking down the stock to do major work isn't a problem for me , I probably won't do anything but clean the gun anyways. when I start posting pictures of my airsoft guns you'll find out what kind of gun person I am, No RIS Rails all over the place no overly done up rifles just plain full metal rifles and handguns with internal upgrades.

Well good for you! I chose to buy certain models with rails. And certain models are bought stock... These are not neccessarily "add-ons".

The only problem with using airsoft guns for seeing if you like X gun is that most airsoft guns mimic guns many civillians will never get to touch. The only close civillian copy guns I can think of in airsoft are the M16 series, G3 Series, and AK series. And I don't know of any machine gun shoots within 200 miles of me but I'll keep on the look out.

I never said that (i.e. that's not what I meant). You should test shoot the real steel gun before you buy it. The only relation to airsoft is that's the exact same advice when people ask, "What's am bestest airsoft gun".

Anyway kinda funny you asking for advice. You seem to have all the answers already...

 

[Yeager]

Well good for you! I chose to buy certain models with rails. And certain models are bought stock... These are not neccessarily "add-ons".

I never said that (i.e. that's not what I meant). You should test shoot the real steel gun before you buy it. The only relation to airsoft is that's the exact same advice when people ask, "What's am bestest airsoft gun".

Anyway kinda funny you asking for advice. You seem to have all the answers already...

Heh nice collection there, those look like my guns. Just a few add ons with nothing more

Sorry I misread your previous post, I thought you were comparing the basic operation of airsoft guns to firearms. :/

sorry if I seem to have all the answers, I just wanted some gunshop etiquette and thoughts on the whole ammunition blowing up in my hand thing.. possibly advice on the diffrent makes of each gun (Century arms ect) but I think I got quite a bit of information from you two.

 

[fatcat]

Ammo blowing up in your hand cant NOT happen. You can even shoot ammo and all it will do is cook off out the holes (Yes I have done it ) You can throw it off buildings and even then it could be hard to go off I have seen it after it was run over by cars on the road and not gone off. Ammo is VERY stable, only way of setting it off is hammer and a nail, Fire, oven, Microwave, nuclear attack, being run over by an armored vehical, sucked into a jet engine, used as a spark plug, Used as a fuze in a high voltage app, fed into a trash compacter, eatten with hammers and nails... or fire, yelled at by Ex wife or even ex girlfiriend (Thats the excuse anyways) , sat on by rosie o'donnell OR michael more, .... Im still thinking :0

Only way of it happening is with rimfires you can drop them and they can go off but I have done it many times and they never have, hell I had some go in a vacuum and they never went off.

 

[ORCA]

Hehe well info on dif real steel mfgs can be found from most of our regular members. I'd hate to give a huge recommendation of brother Adler cuz his head would get big lol, but I've taken alot of the guys advice here for real steel buys and none have let me down.

Probably would be a good idea for you to list what your interested in, in seperate posts. The original list you posted is a bit overwhelming to answer in a single thread. Plus some of the guns you listed we already have a few threads on with some good info. (i.e. G3's, AK's, Shotty's etc.) They just happen to be in different sections of the board.

OK as for the Garand. Check out the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) http://www.odcmp.com/. More specifically here: http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm Basically if you do a little work you can qualify to buy from the CMP. These are actual USGI surplus Garands, M1 Carbines, SF '03', Enf '17 etc. and the low proces reflect it. They will need TLC, but they are a bit more historic then a modern day mfg'd model at a fraction of the price.

But I'd suggest you also look into the Springfield M1A. .308/7.62 goodness and can be "modernized" with a JAE100 or EBR stock system.

 

[Ducman]

get a 10/22, there is a huge aftermarket, plenty of upgrades to personalize your rifle. You can shoot all day for cheap and they can be used for plinking or built for accuracy.

If you haven't shot a real gun, and have issues with ammo, you will probably have issue shooting a .223 and certainly a .308

and the problems you have heard about the ar15 are not true. I shoot a SBR ar15. my nose touches the charging handle. I don't get any powder in the eyes and haven't had any reliablity issue, which is surprising out of a 7' barrel

 

[Yeager]

sounds good guys! I was in K-mart ( yes yes I know they suck but comeon Martha stewart!) and noticed that they still have the Rugar ".22" 10/22 carbine for 185 USD. I can certinally spend that much on a rifle to learn on and play gunsmith with.

I'm a bit more comfortable with bullets now that I'm aware that they won't just explode like I've been told by several "Savvy" gun owners. I might consider an AR-15 down the road but for now I'll just take the advice and buy a 10/22.



Thanks guys.

 

[Adler]

I have an AR and yes mine is more prone to jamming than my other guns and it gets dirty quicker due to the direct gas system.

Personally I say for rifles that you should always start with a 22lr so you dont get the recoil flinch. Gradually work your way to a 223/5.56 and then to the 308 and larger calibers.

Do the same with a pistol. Start with a nice Ruger, Browning, or Beretta 22lr and work your way up it makes it easier to be good when you go to a big bore gun.

The TT33 did not come off the line with a safety and you should never carry one cocked and locked since they are sometimes a shitty conversion. The only ones with factory safeties are teh chinese ones. They are thin and would make good carry guns in theory but at best they are a nightstand gun.

Broomhandles are expensive for what they are and the 9mms comand a premium. They are neat but not great shooters and thats why the Luger beat them out of a full contract.

Old Hi Powers with the stock inlet are ok but rare. If its a German occupation HI Power be carefull since there are instances of FN workers sabotaging the quality. Not to mention the internal extractors of the old Hi Powers had a real problem with breaking. And since its been almost 50 years since they got away from those the parts are harder to find. Get a new one if you plan on shooting it.

Mini 14s are cool but innaccuratte compared to other 223 guns.

The best G3 clone is the JLD PTR series

I would not get the FN 2000 or PS90 yet. Sure you can reload but they are new and it remains to be seen how nice the US made ones hold up compared to the Belgian ones. Ive noticed issues with USA BEretta vs Italian Berettas before. Also the reloading components for the 5.7 are still pricey.

A cool alternative to your M1 tanker model, which a real one will cost a fortune is the Beretta BM59. Its basically a modified Tanker M1 that takes detachable magazines holding 20 rounds. Very cool guns.


If you have any specifics about a model PM me.

 

[Yeager]

Roger that, will hold off on the FN guns untill some more people get them.

Also making a note about the Hi-powers and TT33. As I'm far too young to start carrying more than likely the pistol would end up as a display peice on my desk and only used if the situation really called for it. You say its a good nightstand gun and as such I'll keep it in mind.

As for the Broomhandles Didn't the chinamen make a varient in 9mm that was nicknamed the "red 9" ? Edit: Found it,

In 1930s China also purchased lots of the C-96s in 7.63mm, and also manufactured copies of the C-96 but chambered for .45ACP cartridge. Surprisingly, these copies were of quite good quality. Many C-96 clones were manufactured in Spain, mostly withouth any license, and mostly by the Astra

I'd be perfectly happy with a clone if I can find one, I'm guessing it will be over 1 thousand dollars and thats no problem..

Also noted about the BM59,

BM59 was available in 4 modification:
* BM59 Mark I had a wooden stock with semi-pistol grip.
* BM59 Mark II had a wooden stock with pistol grip to achieve a better control during the full-auto fire;
* BM59 Mark III, or Ital TA, was a gun with a pistol grip and a metallick folding buttstock, and was intended for Mountain troops; BM59 Para was similar to BM59 Ital TA but had shorter barrel and shorter flash-hider, and was intended for paratroopers.
* BM59 Mark IV, had a heavier barrel and plactick stock, and was used as a light squad automatic weapon.

I'm liking the BM59 Mark III and Mark II, it might just replace the M1A on my list.


Also duely noted about the G3 JLD clone.

OK, so far I've got this down for the two starting guns I'll be looking for (IF I am allowed to buy pistols directly from FFLs)

Ruger 10/22 Carbine
Ruger MK II/I Handgun

Thanks for all the information guys

 

[fatcat]

Np, good luck on your buying and remember, these are not airsoft.... these are the real things so be safe and carefull.

I know i know.. (ok mom!)

 

[Adler]

Actually alot of teh Chinese guns are in 7.63 and 45acp(domestically produced)

They also made a K98 rifle that was pretty crappy so stay away from Chinese ones since the quality was iffy back then....hell the chinese made crap gns up until the 1980's outside some Aks and SKS


The Red 9 models you are reffering to are the so called Bolo model which really got its name because the Bolsheviks bought a hunge amount of them. These are downsized Broomhandles in 9mm and the red 9 in the grips was to help avoid the rather uneducated Red Army soldiers from trying to put the wrong ammo in them. iot is possible that some made it to china before the Sino Soviet split of the 1960's. The soviets did have a habit of supplying arms to start up communist states. This is why US GI's in Vietnam found out that some NVA snipers were actually shooting at them with soviet captured K98 mausers.

What you might want to do is look for a broomhandle in 7.63 that has aot of parts replacements so the collector value is low, and one with a shot out barrel and have a smith rebarrel it or reline the barrel with a 9mm sleave. This avoids shooting a collector gun to death, and insures you get a nice shooter without breaking tehe bank.


BTW if you get a Tokarev pistol and opt to not get the Chinese 7.62 or 9mm models try to get a Polish made one. They are better than the Russian ones.

 

[Yeager]

Polish made, duley noted..

Stay away from anything thats made in china prior to the mid-late 80s, got it..

I know i know..

Hah, who hasn't started out with a bb gun?

come to think of it who hasn't had theirs taken away? :twisted:

Relax, more than likely any guns I buy will end up conversational peices. Its like some guy on THR put it, "A Gun is a harmless hunk of metal when one does not have the intent or the ammunition to fire it"

a 10/22 would be a useful and educational tool, I probably wouldn't keep very much if any ammunition for it or any other gun I own unless it was part of a survival kit or I had reloading dyes and nothing to do...

and I dont think I'll have a problem distinguishing what a real gun can do compared to a glorified toy. So bar any stupid noob mistakes I should be fine with a real gun..

if it turns out this isn't a fluke I'll start renting other guns at ranges and work my way up to a point that I'll be comfortable with a 7.62. and so on and so on. Thats when all the information you guys are giving me will come into use.


Oh and how do I change my avatar? >.<

 

[fatcat]

lol the gun stuff is easy compared to changeing your ava!

Us that have done it are not totaly sure how we did it...

 

[Adler]

You know you have progressed as far as you can when you get up to the belted magnums and can hit accurately. My fav is the 375 H&H or the 376 Steyr is pretty fun as well if you can find both a gun and ammo