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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In real world wolves don't chuck spears or throw knives at you from 15 yds. away they run/walk upon you Tueller drill style for a surprise attack win.

How do you LEO or CCW guys train for close combat via gun and sightless shot?



- Janq
 

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its called "tactical pistol" class

there are several LIVE drills with targets moving towards you, reload drills, weak hand shooting and point shooting from sevral different positions


one day - i would luv to make a meca to "thunder ranch"
 

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This is one reason why I still think lasers on pistols (Crimson trace grips specifically) are a Good Thing.

You never know how you are going to deploy a gun if you have to, maybe it will be from some wierd, awkward angle, maybe you will be grappling around in the floor, maybe you will have to use your non-dominant hand and eye and forget all your normal shooting training. CT grips allow you to see where the gun is pointing without actually having to line the sights up with your eye, which you may not have the opportunity to do.

Plus, if you do practice point shooting, it's really easy to tell if you are spot on or not! :)

I practice it to some extent, but not seriously, just with what I have read on the internets, along with "combat" shooting or whatever it's called- crouched, legs spread, realy tight grip on the gun, staring at target, etc.
 

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Inside of 10-15 feet. You can speed rock the first shot, Getting the gun out and muzzle forward just as it clears leather. Break the shot then as you bring the gun up forward continue with more shots, be awareof your weak hand

Ironically a good example is from Collateral with cruise.

Outside that you can use point and shoot, using the top of the slide, but at this point if you can see the slide, then you can see the front sight
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
A pic to assist Ducman's reply and also because well hell it's bad ass. :twisted:



- Janq
 

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Ducman said:
Inside of 10-15 feet. You can speed rock the first shot, Getting the gun out and muzzle forward just as it clears leather. Break the shot then as you bring the gun up forward continue with more shots, be awareof your weak hand

Ironically a good example is from Collateral with cruise.

Outside that you can use point and shoot, using the top of the slide, but at this point if you can see the slide, then you can see the front sight

yea inside 10ft is freaking CLOSE quaters requiring immediate intense reaction



btw - dat was bad ass
 

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You don't need a laser, or even sights for <15foot shots. If you can point your finger, no matter where your arm is, you can hit the target.
 

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CQB and Lasers

I've always thought lasers were useless. I guess if you find yourself on your back and the bad guy is torturing you by having your arms in vices, and you somehow get a hold of a pistol and you can only shoot it from that position.....

But then again we should just leave that stuff up to our hollywood action heros.

Lasers are no substitute for good training.

The only time I can see using a laser is if it's a covert op. You're using NVG's and you're using an IR laser. And how often are we going to find ourselves in that situation?

If you're shooting from the hip trying to get two into the body as quick as possible, you wouldn't have time to look for that laser dot anyway. Save the $200 you would have spent on that fancy laser sighting system and use it on bullets.
 

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One good thing about a laser is that it is so Hollywood. I know a few cops who have had lasers installed on their Glocks and it's saved them from shooting a few people.

It seems that people don't seem to care that they're staring down the real life version of a Brucelee picture, but they understand from watching movies that when that red dot is on your chest, that is exactly where the bullet will hit. then and only then do they seem to comply.

Like I said, I know a few cops who've had this experience.
 

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Damn Yankee said:
Like I said, I know a few cops who've had this experience.
O RLY? I had thought that that was more or less urban legend, that people couldn't really see a dot on them unless they looked down, which wasn't likely in a lot of scenarios. Interesting to see that it's actually happened.

Lasers can be taken as hollywood if that's the way you want to use 'em, and they are absolutely no substitute for iron sights training, but I stand by my view that they are a useful addition to a SD gun (too expensive for me right now, though)...as an ADDITIONAL TOOL for sighting, not a replacement tool. :)
 

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You are right, you have to train with sights as well, or when that battery dies you're fucked.

And yes, it's real. the way one of them went down was my old Captain was in an on-duty situation where she wound up having her Glock trained on a perp. He was NOT complying with verbal commands, but wasn't enough of a threat to warrant pulling the trigger, though it was VERY close. Anyway, she says to him, "Hey, look down at your chest. See that red dot? That's where the bullets are going to hit you if you don't start doing what I'm telling you to do!!"

He saw the dot, and then decided to comply with verbal orders.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
One would not have to see the dot on themselves, they only have to see the beam concentrated coming at them ala a flashlight.
Every 3rd grader now days knows what that means.

DY you present an interesting arguement for Crimson Trace whihc are spendy and otherwise I've not been a fan for.

Thanks,

- Janq
 

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Crimson Trace is one of the only ways to get laser on a Beretta, and I shot one with the CT grips. I was not impressed. Out of habit, when I'm off the trigger I use the disassembly button on the right side of the frame as a place to rest my finger (no pressure, just a reference point). As such, I completely block the laser with my finger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Damn Yankee said:
Crimson Trace is one of the only ways to get laser on a Beretta, and I shot one with the CT grips. I was not impressed. Out of habit, when I'm off the trigger I use the disassembly button on the right side of the frame as a place to rest my finger (no pressure, just a reference point). As such, I completely block the laser with my finger.
Yeah I was not impressed with them either on the SW1911 PD I tested last fall that had them factory installed.
My ointing finger knuckle kept blocking the beam and I found the beam itslef to be distracting.
But as you pointed out the beam itself can be a deterrent so maybe it's not all bad. I hear the Lasermax recoil guide installed unit is fubar eating batteries big time. :(

- Janq
 

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necroposting, but for a good reason

Damn Yankee said:
Crimson Trace is one of the only ways to get laser on a Beretta, and I shot one with the CT grips. I was not impressed. Out of habit, when I'm off the trigger I use the disassembly button on the right side of the frame as a place to rest my finger (no pressure, just a reference point). As such, I completely block the laser with my finger.
So I'm considering CT grips for my M&P....

Blocking the beam can be a "feature" depending on how you look at it. Tracers work both ways, as the saying goes. The laser is going to be emitting continuously as long as you're holding the grip, but like Damn Yankee said it's easy for a right handed shooter to block the beam with a high index finger.

Evaluate where your index finger goes, especially during the draw stroke and during other fast/instinctive actions. It may not be a problem for you, and the ability to block the beam is IMHO a worthwhile feature.
 

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I typically prefer the firing from retention position approach. Thing one, is start moving so that deebo has to work a little harder, and thing two is get the gun up clear of the leather and into retention so that a couple of shots can be placed at center mass.
 

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In my mind, I think of point shooting as more of a "wild west"/Collateral quick draw versus the James Bond method. The idea, in my mind, being to gain fire superiority as quickly as possible, which often means being the first to send the lead...and that's what I practice in my dry fire drills. Its hard for me in my area to practice live fire versions where you're moving while doing the above, so dry fire practice is about as much training as I've gotten in it.

I also don't like lasers of any kind. I find it way to distracting for me, as I focus purely on the dot, and not the target as a whole. I feel like in a live fire situation, that could cause me to not notice vital information about the target. This is just my experience when using lasers on range rentals, not in real drills.
 

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mattxander12 said:
In my mind, I think of point shooting as more of a "wild west"/Collateral quick draw versus the James Bond method. The idea, in my mind, being to gain fire superiority as quickly as possible, which often means being the first to send the lead...and that's what I practice in my dry fire drills. Its hard for me in my area to practice live fire versions where you're moving while doing the above, so dry fire practice is about as much training as I've gotten in it.

I also don't like lasers of any kind. I find it way to distracting for me, as I focus purely on the dot, and not the target as a whole. I feel like in a live fire situation, that could cause me to not notice vital information about the target. This is just my experience when using lasers on range rentals, not in real drills.
Let's not forget the eventuality that the laser will eventually fail due to batteries or not being switched on.

Learn to use the iron when you can, and learn to shoot from retention when you need to.
 

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mwink822 said:
Let's not forget the eventuality that the laser will eventually fail due to batteries or not being switched on.

Learn to use the iron when you can, and learn to shoot from retention when you need to.
And always carry a poison tipped umbrella.
 
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