Gun Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As reported by WCBS2 (NY):

May 23, 2007 6:48 am US/Eastern

CBS 2 Exclusive: Dept. That Can't Shoot Straight
Documents Show Officers Struggle To Hit Live Targets
NYPD 2005 Firearms Discharge Report

Lou Young
Reporting

(CBS) NEW YORK CBS 2 HD has uncovered some disturbing statistics out of police headquarters. A confidential firearms report indicates a problem with gunfire accuracy in the NYPD.

It’s a troubling question -- when police officers shoot can they hit what they're shooting at?

Many officers find success at the range, but experts and now the statistics indicate there's a big difference between hitting a paper target and firing on the job.

On the firing range, New York City police officers are required to put 80 percent of their shots on target. In the field, they are considerably less accurate even as they shoot more bullets per incident.

A confidential NYPD report indicates an increase in every category of shots fired on the job, accompanied by a disturbing drop in accuracy.

Of 276 police bullets fired in gunfights in 2005 only 23 found their target -- an 8 percent accuracy rate. Comparing the trend to the year before we see gunfight bullet volume up 200 percent, while the accuracy has deteriorated significantly.

"My god, that's pretty poor ... pretty sad," firearms instructor John Parmerton said.

CBS 2 HD brought the report to Parmerton, a retired state trooper who also teaches many city cops. He said they complain that their on-the-job training isn't good enough.

"Not good enough for the weapons that they're carrying and not good enough for the confrontations that are occurring on the street," Parmerton said.

"The weapon" is a 9-millimeter handgun, first designed as a military sidearm capable of pumping out tremendous firepower in short order.

Law enforcement experts say that giving all cops such devastating firepower was a political decision whose success or failure rests on the level of training.

CBS 2 HD asked Robert McCrie, a John Jay College professor of criminal justice, if he thinks it was a mistake to switch to semi-automatic weapons exclusively.

"I think it was a mistake, but it's very hard to say to law enforcement we don't think you should have firepower up to the level of the criminal element," McCrie said.

The stats, in fact, show that during gunfights criminals are more than twice as accurate as NYPD officers with these semi-automatic weapons. Seventeen suspects fired 72 bullets in 2004, hitting officers 14 times -- an accuracy rate of 19 percent compared to the NYPD's 8 percent.

Parmerton said the department's weapons instructors have been turned into paper pushers.

"Because of the sheer volume, because of the requirement to get as many bodies through the place as possible they've become target posters and line callers," Parmerton said. "It's so bad that specialty units like Emergency Services Unit, like Organized Crime Control Bureau, like Counter Terrorism Unit have all extended their firearms training over and above what the rank and file -- the uniformed squads -- get because they realize it's inadequate to put their officers on the street."

NYPD spokesman Paul Browne dismisses the 2005 figures CBS 2 HD reported as "an anomaly."

He said city cops shoot less than they used to, but doesn't address the issue of how well they shoot.

CBS 2 HD asked the NYPD to see 2006 statistics, but we're still waiting for an answer.

An outside review of NYPD's training program, ordered after the Sean Bell shooting, is expected at the end of next month.

The story can be found at; http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_142170041.html

- Janq
 

·
Fanatical Feline
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
They should all cary automatic weapons.. That way they can have more of a chance to hit something ;)


Of 276 police bullets fired in gunfights in 2005 only 23 found their target -- an 8 percent accuracy rate

That is quite scary..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,143 Posts
its a known fact that there is a great percentage of LEO's out there that dont practice and try to improve their firearm tactics
 

·
Fanatical Feline
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
Ive outshot a few cops at the range sometimes with handguns and alot with rifles.

Im not to good with handguns, hardly ever even shoot them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
That'd be the safest place.

The thing that ISN'T being taken into account is that they are trying to hit a target that is mobile, definatly hostile, and their adrenal glands are being pumped harder than Paris Hilton in the fantasy prison I wish she was at.

Being able to have good accuracy in a combat-esque situation isn't easy.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,139 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Yep ^^

I know this isn't exactly the same but it is analagous...I've seen exactly this phenomenon occur over the years with paintball.
Newbies and/or weekend warrior types who only play ocassionally and/or just in the woods where it's relatively safe due to disatnce and cover...almost always get PWNED when attempting to play under high pressure/high intensity tournament conditions. Amongst other things their otherwise good when relaxed ability to aim or even run (!) completely goes to shit. They trip, stumble, and fall. They spray and pray and strings of balls/ammo go flying everywhere but where they should.

One can always tell the practiced and experienced from those who are not just by watching them take the field in their first game/heat of a given tournament event.
I suspect for a shootist/cop under same conditions on the street the exact same thing occurs...vapor lock and suck.

Like every other physical activity winning always comes down to preparation and training.

- Janq needs to get his own ass to the range
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
The Ghoul said:
That'd be the safest place.

The thing that ISN'T being taken into account is that they are trying to hit a target that is mobile, definatly hostile, and their adrenal glands are being pumped harder than Paris Hilton in the fantasy prison I wish she was at.

Being able to have good accuracy in a combat-esque situation isn't easy.

I agree that a moving target is different than a stationary target but that is still a very poor hit/miss percentage even with all factors considered.

This info. would be impossible to get or determine but; I would like to know what direction the targets were running, speed and range.

The fastest a target could move(estimate based on range and athletic ability)
Lets say; target running 8-10 mph across the line of sight at 5 yards. This guy would be hard as hell to hit based on having 10mph across the line of sight but as his range starts to open and his aspect(from the LEO's eyes) starts to narrow into 4-5 mph out of the line of sight/4-5 across the LOS then he would become much easier to hit.
Any target running into the LOS or out of the LOS would be the same as a stationary target. I would be willing to bet that alot of the targets shot at were running away from the LEO so it would be almost no movement across the LOS. Once the car is at the 12 o'clock position he is putting all his speed across the LOS. At a 45 degree angle(10:30 position) the target is putting 1/2 of his speed across the LOS.

The Navy uses this info. for weapon placement on ships. The ships are moving in one direction and can't turn quick so it would be easier for a LEO to instantly change the aspect by facing the target to help eliminate some of the speed across the LOS or he can completely change the LOS by moving behind the target if they are running away.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
You think that shooting someone running away from you would be allowed?

I see what you are saying, but that theory would only work if the target is moving linearly and perpendicular to the officer.

The Navy? Come on. They have guided missles, auto tracking cannons, etc. It would be different if a dude with an M4gery was on top trying to hit a boat, but seriously...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
what the article failed to mention is a very large percentage of LEO shootings are defensive/reactive.... as in the LEO is being fired upon and needs to return fire.

The bad guys have such a high hit percentage because they shoot first almost every time.

Put yourself in this situation: you are on a traffic stop and the bad guy in the driver seat draws down and puts one in your chest, out of nowhere... even two in your chest... you need to return fire and seek cover as quickly as possible. even if he misses, how many rounds are you going to put on the bad guy? are you going to pick up your front sight, rear sights, equal sight, equal height, sqeeze? hell f'ing no you are not! run and gun and i guarantee you are going to empty a mag and reload at the minimum.

that article is someone trying to work their way to the top and skewing reality like the media always does.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
The Ghoul said:
You think that shooting someone running away from you would be allowed?


I see what you are saying, but that theory would only work if the target is moving linearly and perpendicular to the officer.

The Navy? Come on. They have guided missles, auto tracking cannons, etc. It would be different if a dude with an M4gery was on top trying to hit a boat, but seriously...

In cases where the shooter has already fired and is now fleeing the scene, yes

No, actually it works for movement in any direction and aspect

Yes the Navy. Perhaps I should have said we use it in the submarine force. The surface guys get all kinds of nifty toys. We use TMA(target motion analysis) to determine all movements of a target.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Jakes02 said:
In cases where the shooter has already fired and is now fleeing the scene, yes

No, actually it works for movement in any direction and aspect

Yes the Navy. Perhaps I should have said we use it in the submarine force. The surface guys get all kinds of nifty toys. We use TMA(target motion analysis) to determine all movements of a target.
I still don't know if firing and hitting the suspect if he is fleeing would be allowed. I know that if he shoots at you and you are in iminent danger, then yes, you shoot. But when he shoots and boogies on out? IDK about that.

The formula you stated would be true ONLY if he were moving paralell to you. If he were coming at you, the only thing that would change is the size, not position of the target. Same for moving away from you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
The Ghoul said:
I still don't know if firing and hitting the suspect if he is fleeing would be allowed. I know that if he shoots at you and you are in iminent danger, then yes, you shoot. But when he shoots and boogies on out? IDK about that.
Your answer is in case law.

Even policemen are severely restricted now from shooting a fleeing felony suspect because of the U.S. Supreme Court decision Tennessee v. Garner (1985).

read up and you will get your answer. short version: yes you can shoot a fleeing felon in the back, but there are severe restrictions.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top