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Discussion Starter #1
I learned to shoot with the Weaver stance, and would never do anything to disrespect the good Colonel, but recently I've been seeing junk online about some new tactical way of holding a gun called center axis relock.

Anyone here trained in CAR techniques? Is it legit, or just some riced out tacticool bullshit?

From sabretactical.com:
C.A.R., or The Center Axis Relock Method of Gunfighting

Q. What is it?

A. It is a gun fighting technique, not a range application.

- It is a strong, stable, and flexible platform for action.
- It allows quick target acquisition and rapid fire bursts
of 4 shots to COM in under 1 second with standard pistols.
- It can be used effectively in small spaces and vehicles.
- It is applicable to team assault situations.
- It provides maximum weapon retention, and also serves as
a practical and effective base for contact fighting.

The C.A.R. Center Axis Relock Method of Gunfighting
utilizes two main positions or stances as bases for action.

The High Position:

The first position is called the High position. It is used
for working within confined spaces, from cover, and while
moving.

It is a very strong and flexible base for using both short
and long weapons such as a handgun, baton, O.C. Spray,
shotgun, sub-machine gun, and other weapons.

In the High position, the operator is in a semi-bladed
stance, with the weapon held or cradled next to the chest.

The position is achieved by blading towards the threat
while also drawing and bringing the gun up to the chest.
When the gun is drawn, it should be directed to the threat
for firing if needed. Also, as the gun is being brought
up, the other hand should be moving to grasp and support
it.

This base position reduces the Operator's silhouette,
employs a balanced and stable, yet flexible body stance,
and works in harmony with gross muscle movements, gross
motor skills, and our natural reactions to extreme stress,
one of which, is to bring the arms and hands back to the
body, not away from it.

The stance with elbows extended, makes up a natural cradle
from which the gun can be fired if need be, with both hands
or with just the gun hand.
 

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For extreme close quater stuff, it maybe viable. Its basically point shooting using your body to index. good for weapon retention.

But for me modified isoscele is the way to go. Anytime you are bladed, you limit your ability to tranisition to the left. The weaver stance and grip causes recoil to twist your body, and the push/pull grip is a great way to learn how to flinch your shots at speed or under stress
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Nose Nuggets said:
i remember talking about this. i thought it was here. with a video showing the guy shooting from the hip inside his truck.
That's one cool thing CAR has going for it: even lefties can shoot from the driver's side window of a car.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Excellent. Good find, NN.

The "high" position seems good for CQB (just don't get poked in the eye when the slide moves back).

The "base" position, though... not so sure. It's great that the position lets you fire tight groups, but how well can you PLACE said groups, hmm? Despite that, if you got caught in a hand-to-hand combat situation with a pistol in your hands, the base position looks like a smart idea.

I'm imagining surprise room-cleaning exercises where the first person through the door does "base" position and the rest are "high". With their elbows tucked in, the first person through can freely rotate to cover any quadrant with the 2nd guy through staying in very tight formation. The bad guys might be wise to the fact that #1 almost always turns left in room-clearing exercise. CAR gives operators the ability to mix it up.

OK yeah, so CAR it might not be the best for IPSC or personal defense, but it seems reasonable for "other" applications ;)
 

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The way i was tought to clear a room with 3 others is to move into the room quickly and clear your own sector. The first man in clears directly ahead then proceedes 90degrees right if the door is not on the right side of the room. like this



i dont know if thats SOP.
 

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Nose Nuggets said:
The way i was tought to clear a room with 3 others is to move into the room quickly and clear your own sector. The first man in clears directly ahead then proceedes 90degrees right if the door is not on the right side of the room. like this



i dont know if thats SOP.
SOP varies from team to team. If you stack the stick like that, the first person is always right... so you just peel opposite of the person in front of you. Shallow to deep and you dig the corners to make sure you have 100% coverage of the room. It is a fluid and dynamic room clearing method.

There are many others out there thought and different schools of thought on each.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
There's definitely more than one way to do it. Assuming #1 is right-handed and wielding either a carbine or shotgun, it's arguably faster for him to acquire targets in the lefthand hemisphere. Also, turning right may result in #1 moving into #2's zone of fire.


Anyway, it looks like the elbows-tucked position available with CAR lets you stack really tight, which is a good thing.
 

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I'm still interested in C.A.R. as per my previous thread mentioned above.

The last three days I've been in training at the S&W Academy in a LEO/paramilitary oriented course called 'Defensive Handgun Tactics & Techniques'. The course as taught by Bill Porter is a 200 and/or refresher level they offer roughly thrice per year with an emphasis toward observation, judgement, and efficiency in bringing ones arm to bear...upon making correct judgement to do so as a result of ones observation and analysis (!). More info on the course can be found here; http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...langId=-1&parent_category_rn=21808&training=Y

Anyway in the class of 12 there was a Canadian who is a firearms instructor and member of their infantry. He was using the C.A.R. process which to me was immediately evident and as he and I were stationed for three days next to each other during training I can say by direct observation this system works well as applied and practiced by the Canadian.
Very tight groups, quick to bear from the holster, quick to transition toward contact from low and high ready, and though we did not practice retention in specific (that's another course that I may now choose to take as well) I'd imagine one would have a difficult time wresting a firearm from a person applying such a technique. The firearm is kept very close to the body when at the low/high ready and even when firing it's kept closer to the body than one would think. It works, or rather worked very well for this specific gent from Canada. His only error as caught by me and the instructor but completely oblivious to him was that he'd bring the weapon to bear stupid quick even from the holster but just before taking his first shot he'd noticeably pause assumedly lining up his sights for pinpoint/bullseye accuracy and then fire. This is bad for the street but fine for shooting on a range against paper targets that don't shoot back. Porter commented to him on this and following several timed efforts was able to show him in real time how much quicker (!) he could be if he'd just shoot instinctively without the pause and still be for him crazy accurate. Accuracy I'm talking about three hits within a pennies circumference shooting a bone stock Glock .45. I don't know what model number it was but it was a full size not compact.

No mention in class was made toward C.A.R. in specific nor any other mode of pistol craft aside from Weaver (not good...described as "one of the worst things to happen in law enforcement training!") and Modified Isoceles. We did _a lot_ of one handed shooting strong and weak hand and most all of our shooting had an emphasis on unsighted instinctive/point shooting toward real world combat hits and doing so as smoothly as possible as accurately as possible with as many rounds placed down range into the BGs vitals (CoM and/or mid to lower abdomen) as quickly as we individually could do _all_ of the above.
I learned a good amount and relearned several others while overall coming to the conclusion that my own mindset and training and opinion/outlook prior to this class was largely on point relative to what was covered in the course.

More can be read toward C.A.R. via gun-fu forum 'ThreatFocused.com' that I lurk; http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28

I'll explain later under it's own thread how I came to be able to take this course at S&W (I was asked by an R.O. if I would be interested) and I've been away from the 'net as each night I've come home physically exhausted. Later this weekend I'll try to do a writeup on the experience and many lessons learned as well as reaffirmed.

- Janq
 

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Another source with video links; http://performancetactical.com/Video_Links_cla.html

Itr seems as of late dude from Sabre Tech decided to begin offering his CAR course to civilians (non-LEO/MIL) and as such has setup a secondary organization referred to as IPD to train folks in what they call the 'IPDS' system as based on CAR; http://www.ipdsystems.com

One concern BTW, they as standard practice train to throw a shit load of ammo down range toward the BG.
As effective as that might be it likelyt will not IRL look good in the press nor to the police muchless the attorney generals office/city prosecutor having a GG citizen ventilate a mugger or whoever with 4, 5, 7, 10 rds. of ammo to CoM. We civilians can only shoot to stop a threat (!).

Two to the chest I'd buy even three but geez...these boys are throwing 4, 5 and more rounds and even in some other vids at YouTube going down to slide lock (!).

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Is it wrong that I initially misread that as "idpsystems.com"? ;)

But seriously, Janq, you raise a very good point about civilians emptying a whole gunful of ammo into a bad guy. An uninformed jury might not take too kindly to that level of reaction, nevermind whether it's justified.

As a transplanted /Texas resident, though I'll say that they have a saying down that way: "Dead men press no charges." In other words, never shoot to wound. If the situation has escalated to the point that bullets are travelling downrange, your obligation is to kill the target as rapidly and humanely as possible. As for hunting, as for self-defense. Never heard of anyone Mozambiqu'ing a deer, though :p
 

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Ipds

Hey Guys! Just found this forum through a google search for "center axis relock." Im glad I found it, looks like a good place.

Anyway, just wanted to add my input to this thread on the CAR / IPD system. I've taken some formal training on the CAR system, including an IPD class through performance tactical in CT. In the past I would have considered myself a mod. Iso shooter and I found myself to be pretty proficient at shooting from that stance, enough to be able to shoot well beyond master level in the IDPA classifier (which may not be saying a whole lot ;) ). As I've continued taking classes in pistol tactics I've had the opportunity to find a lot of the shortcomings of the iso stance. Without mentioning all its strong points, and there are some, especially in open areas, some of the disadvantages I found was that its very difficult to utilize in a house with all its tight hallways and sharp angles, ect. Additionally I felt vulnerable holding my gun out to targets that were within 5 yards of me. In a car there are angles that are impossible to cover from iso.

Check out this article written by my IPD instructer and it pretty well explains the need for being able to shoot in "up close and in your face" type confrontations.

http://www.bridgeportshootingrange.com/pdf/IPDSarticle.pdf

A ton of information can be read on the sabre tactical website so I won't mention a lot of specifics about the system, I will just give my personal input on it. First, take a formal IPD or CAR class. You can not learn how to effectively utilize the system without training, theres more to it than meets the eye. Second, the system has a learning curve. Yes, it works in harmony with your body and once its practiced a good bit, it will feel very comfortable, however having the gun go off right next to your body takes a while to get used to. Theres a lot more I can say but heres a link to a review one person wrote of the IPD course.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/793265/pid/1205926/#pid

Heres a link to a couple of IPD shooting vids:

http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/E_close-tac/?action=view&current=onthemoveII.flv


http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/E_close-tac/?action=view&current=high2.flv


Also, if you search "center axis relock" on youtube there are a few vids there as well. As far as engaging targets goes, in CAR you put a minimum of 4 rounds on your target. This may seem excessive but heres the reasoning behind it: In a CQ altercation, time is of the essence. Every .01 of a second you delay ending the incident is more time for your adversary to continue the attack. Frankly there is no time in this type of situation to access the damage of each round, you must shoot and keep shooting untill the adversary goes down. Think about it, you did not choose to fight, the adversary did, and he has no qualms about killing you. It cant be a he shoots I shoot type of fight, once your into it you must fight and fight without reserve. Multiple shots both to the body and the head will bring the situation to a close. Lets face it, handgun rounds are not sure one shot stoppers, you must be able to deliever multiple rounds quickly to bring the fight to an immediate end.
 
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