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I originally posted the following in another thread last night.
I'd decided to move it here to it's own thread and to add additional thoughts and comments that I had not time to do last night.
Below is the original posting in its entirety followed by my additional notes...

Janq said:
I was out tonight at my regularly scheduled puppy training class and as class was over like normal I walk the pup (he's 6 mos) _before_ putting him backin the truck for the ride home. During class I feed him lots of treats and water so it's just a common sense move not to go throwing him in the back to jostle about in the truck and have an accident.
While returning to my vehicle walking him down to the bottom of the parking lot (furthest in depth from the store fronts) I saw two white males in their early twenties if not late teens appraoching a car parked right next to my truck. Normally this would not concern me never mind cause my spidey senses to elevate. As I get closer my dog on leash and in a heel as we walk the two notice me approaching from a distance of approx. 25'. I was walking along a center divider seperating two parking areas and filled with wood chips, the better to absorb dog pee. In my left/weak hand is the leash looped around my wrist while in my right is a Burger King cup I found in the parking lot that I used to scoop up what was for my pup a large sized load of poo. On my waist at the kidney position is a cocked & locked 4" SA 1911 Lightweight Commander with Trijicon combat sights. I'm loaded with 7 in a Wilson mag and 1 in the breech as well as a second mag on my waist at the left appendix position. I'm wearing a long sleeved DCMO style but casual shirt thats hanging long over my rig along with a coat shirt also DCMO style made of heavy corduroy.

The two boys look at me with one at the drivers door position and the second standing at the right rear passenger door.
What gave me pause was that the driver sees me and eyeballs me for longer than is socially normal then spots my pup. He's an Akita and will be big as right now people mistake him for a full grown medium sized dog. He's about 75lbs. but as normal puppy skinny and gangly, no more scary than a big kitten.
The driver sees the dog and I see his eyes drift to the dog then back to my face. That action registered a blip on my radar. He then yells out to me; "Hey man you better watch out, we got a K9!". Now they are immediately on questinable status so I slow my roll by 50% but keep coming forward closing ground. My pup is busy sniffing the ground oblivious. I say nothing in reply and instead choose to look him directly in the eyes less so much with a look of fuck you but with more of I'm not going to be an easy play, if you've made the mistake to think I'm a mark. This has nothing and I mean zero to do with me at that time having had my CCW on me as I roll that way period regardless. Decades of experience and experiences have learned me not to fold or show fear even if the odds look bad.
The buddy sees me look down his buddy and he steps forward from his position toward the right fender and yells out "I gotta K9 and he'll come after you!". I again choose not to reply verbally as in my experience and observation most often on the streets thats just a ploy to divert attention and/or buy the attackers time to close. I continue my gaze and it's working because the driver to me is looking punked right off the bat but his door is open and he does not choose to get in.
The passenger more bold is coming forward and his right side has completely cleared the fender of their car. I notice he's wearing some sort of tool belt with what looked to be a very large Maglite attached to it as well as a sheathed knife that was pretty big...larger than I normally see people wearing.
Immediately I stop forward movement and sidestep to my right next to the front wheel of a parked car and stand there never breaking my direct eye to tey contact with them both. My pup is on lead so I yank him in tight to my left leg. I'm still holding the cup of poo ready to toss it at them if necessary [everything is a weapon!] and i begin to think about my draw and releasing the safety.
The passenger then sees that I'm standing there, not verbally responding but very obviously aware of them and their presence and I do not look jolly though my brows purposefully are not furrowed, another item I've learned...do not show a distinct emotion and keep the wolves guessing as a show of teeth/aggression will be construed as fear or a challenge. Show a smile and they'll think you're being coy or crazy. Maintain a subtley expressionless but determined looking face and they don't know if you're a fellow wolf or a cagey sheep. It'll buy you time to act/attack first if nothing else.
The driver yells to the passenger his name (I forget what it was) and to "Hurry up and get the dog in the car!". Thats when I see this K9 they kept referring to. It was a Rottie approx. 100 to 115 lbs and adult. Sizeable but I've seen bigger. Dogs generally don't scare me as I grew up with aggresive dogs and have always had big ass dogs including my Akitas as of late, which are much larger, more powerful and stranger aggressive than a Rott once they mature. The driver scurreid into the drivers seat and the passenger followed into the front passnegr seat. I continued to focus my gaze on them both and walked back around the front of the parked car to my truck drivers door. The boys now backed their car out quickly (quicker than necessary) and sped off.

I walked to where they were parked and walked on back to the store front to deposit the cup of poo.
While driving back home I went over what had just happened and what my options might have been had they been true aggessors with intent as they definitely had ability as well as means fulfilling two thirds of J.A.M.

To that end I'll finish up tomorrow under cover of a seperate thread.
To add to this I forgot to mention my ammunition was 230 gr. Remington FMJ, a target ammo as thats all my local Dick's had in stock this past weekend when I went to buy boxes. Wal-Mart was completely sold out of .45, like usual.

As the persons were remarking to me about their "K9" I was emotionally prepared to let go of my dog so as to allow him a best chance to either run or fight back while I'd then attack the K9 by hand. In MA it is illegal for a CCW'r to shoot defensively to protect property which includes animals e.g. pets. Livestock falls under the same rules even if on your own private property. The position is that human life is of higher value than that of an anmal or Muffy the pet cat, or as in my case dog.
I've seen and been in very many dog fights and that no longer bothers or shocks me I know exactly what to do and more importantly not to do there. If the animal came after me instead of my dog then I'd mentally made the plan to leap up onto the hood and then roof of the car I'd used as a barrier. The tie to do so is short an d would buy me even more time to assess, draw and presumably aim then fire. To draw without firing is brandishing and thats a huge no no for CCW in general and MA in specific. Some folks might say just shoot a 'warning' shot in the air to scare off the dog or the wolves that brought it along. That too is fubar and very illegal everywhere. it might work but at the same time it would buy me a trip to jail along with loss of my future freedoms and permitted rights to carry anywhere ever again. It's not worth it. You have to be 100% sure there is J.A.M.

As a refresher fro those who are not familiar with the acronym J.A..M. the following I posted a few months back in an OT thread;
Legality and defensibility though varying somewhat state to state for self-defense (justifiable homocide) as well as toward concealed carry weapon use the bottom line always comes down to the very simple acronym of J.A.M.

Mass.Carry Permit Program Certificate Number LTC-005 said:
J.A.M.

* Jeopardy - Serious bodily injury/death
(e.g. Can he/she/it kill me right now this moment...not in 60 or 30 seconds but right now and _imminent_ death is staring me in the face)

* Ability - To cause that degree of harm
(e.g. Does he/she/it have the _actual_ ability to kill me...not might or could have with a lucky lob shot via a pistol from 2 city blocks/a football field away. We're talking running up on you at OH MY GOD HIS BREATH STINKS!!!! range)

* Means - Weapon of some description and/or physical force
(e.g. Does he/she/it have a weapon of real, serious and immediate ability to kill me...not OMG these kids were squirting my wife & I with Super Soakers so I had to smoke'm. Now if the Super Soakers were filled with gasoline then you might have an arguement but it would still be tenuous as you could just run away but if they also had a lit road flare in hand and you think they were motivated to immolate you & yours now soaked in gasoline alive...well then that would be considered as them having 'means'.)
The above term of J.A.M comes straight from both my VA and MA CCL classes, as well as Masaad Ayoob and most other CCL instruction & refernce guides/books I've read, and the definitions I just trasncribed directly from the class guide book toward my MA CCL class in specific. I took copious notes in class and each page of that book is covered in hand written notes & advisories. The sub explanations are my own words to further define and explain what each elemant of J.A.M. means in plain straight engrish.
If you do not have the trifecta of J.A.M. and just one or two of it's legs then you'll discover in real life that you very likely will be considered a criminal too.
Last night I did not have J.A.M.
Some folks might have been scared being essentially cornered with little other means of 'escape', others fearful becuase it was night out and the location relatively remote. Then there is the OMG "he's got a K9" scared of dogs pucker factor. All of those fears are IMHO rational and human, but if you're carrying a concealed weapon even if it were a less lethal item such as CNS (pepper spray) you still have to adhere to law and ultimately J.A.M. Other folks might have been more indignant toward two punks spoiling their moment and slowing their means toward just getting home. They might have even engaged them in banter or a retort such as fuck you I've got an Akita and thus am a bad ass 'K9' holder too. Fear me you freak fucks!
No. That will get you at the very least embarassed in the streets if not badly hurt or worst killed. The winner is not the guy who yells loudest or even gets in the last word. It's the guy who goes home to his friends and/or family in one piece no lesser or lighter than when he or she left. Yes they were two kids and frankly I'm pretty sure I could take either one of them singly and hold my own agsinst them both hand to hand no weapons involved or dogs. But why? So I can have some cool stupid story to post in OT? hey guys I got locked up for assault or worst but hey I'm a tough guy and whupped up on a kid or two who seemed sketchy in a shopping plaze parking lot. Weaksauce. Don't be that guy and as a CCW'r you cannot be that guy, if you want to stay your butt out of jail, avoid bankruptcy via legal bills or wrost not ebnd up with a murder charge.

Well I'll stop here as no one is going to read all this anyway.
In closing CCW'rs be careful and more inportant mindful while you're out there. The responsibility as others here have noted is awesome and is not as my mother inlaw mistakenly thought a "license to kill". With luck you'll never have to reach for never mind use your CCW and thats the way it should be as we all hope if not pray.

- Janq
 

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This needs an MS Paint map or something, I'm still a bit confused as to the layout, but maybe a more careful reading will help. Last night I read it late and this AM I still haven't finished my coffee.

Still, good situational awareness. Even though you had a pet with you, in terms of CCW, and as an individual you still had a lot of options open to you rather than to just mentally jump to "OMG I've got a gun I'm all set no matter what happens". Too many people do just that.
 

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If you were only 25' when first encountering the situtation, and the continued foward intially after the initial verbal exchange. That distance would give you very little time to react to a person on the move, nevermind a dog. Glad evrything came out OK
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ducman said:
If you were only 25' when first encountering the situtation, and the continued foward intially after the initial verbal exchange. That distance would give you very little time to react to a person on the move, nevermind a dog. Glad evrything came out OK
Yes, thats precisely true.
The driver was just a cars width away from me initially and could have closed distance to me within 2 or 3 seconds with a purposeful run. Thats why I repositioned myself to the right and behind the front wheel of the car parked directly to my right. My truck was parked to the right of that car and they parked next to my truck, imagine three cars lined up with me standing at the bottom most car (not mine) and them at the top most).
By standing there it would require them to ruon out, down and then in toward me taking just enough time for me to be able to see, realize their movement and adjust/react as necessary. Other folks might have kpt on walking to their own vehicle which would have further exposed themselves to danger such as if the 'K9' handler could not restrain his animal or worst just let it go, never mind the wolves themselves aggressing.

Jamz I'll give an MS Paint drawing a try later today/tonight.
This encounter happened in a typical parking lot imagine your average Wal-Mart parking lot only with a 6' wide or so divider running down it's middle filled with mulch and a decorative tree every 20' or so.
I decided to post about this scenario for the exact reason you recognized. I see in OT as well as at many online CCW/Gun specific forums all manner of imaginary scenarios people post up as well as retelling of real events (e.g. the recent Mall shooting) and very often posters state all manner of bad advice and positions leaning toward bravado and shoot first sweat the consequences later type responses. of course alot of this is just talk but still I feel it's bad form if not outright dangerous as relative to new CCW'rs toward their own decision making. My situation was a real event that I could relay and retell with extreme detail as well as being a realisitic potential scenario unlike the mall shooting or being caught in a holdup at McDonalds or some such.
Whats really got me thinking though is what if it had been my wife? It was in fact her turn to take the pup to class but BabyJanq was ahving a breakdown that night so I went instead. She's heavily pregnant and like the average person not good at all with situational awareness or reading peoples subtle physical statements having little to no experience with wolves. I wonder how those two very sketchy acting guys might have acted had it been her as she does the same thing walking the dog before putting him in the truck after class.

I'm glad it was me and not her as the thought makes my stomach turn.

- Janq
 

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Hey Janq,

Glad your and your pup is ok - imagine if say u and mrs. and baby janq were on scene - what would you different?

last 4th of july my family and friends were almost in the middle of a confrontation which included a pit and chow - i had plenty of distance between us and had the kids all packed up ready for extraction.

this is a sad day and age we live in - i mean what the fuck are people thinking?
 

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Here is my post from the 4th of July incident -


Well last night at the fireworks display I was witness to an assault. Kinda like fireworks going on in front and behind.

Parking lot at the park was full; we had to park along side the road, which is under construction to make it 2 lanes in either direction.

So we are parked about 30-40 yards from this house, which is on a corner of a subdivision road. We are about 30 minutes early and people are parking along the road on both sides to view the display. People start driving down the subdivision road and parking.

Well some ghetto thugs park RIGHT in front of this house, somewhat blocking the driveway.

Halfway through the fireworks display I hear some woman yelling, "this is a private drive so get the hell off of my property!" She has a handheld spotlight in one hand and dog leash in the other. The lease is attached to a rather large chow.

At this point I take note of where ALL of the family and friends and children are, advise the other adults of possible situation just behind us and to be ready to scoop the kids up into the trucks.

Just then the ghetto thugs start mouthing off at the lady and bring out their pit bull. The girl holding the pit is having a hard time controlling the dog - the chow is not showing any signs of interest. Just then the lady with the spotlight drops the leash and the chow goes in for the attack. The girl with the pit is now screaming and trying to pull the pit away while the chow just trumps all over the pit. Boy thugs start getting a little crazier when the spotlight lady calls off the chow, and goes inside the house.

Pit bull and thugs pack it up and leave.

I wasn’t sure what was going to happen, loose dogs and thugs - anything was possible, thank god it all went down without additional conflict.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
MrMcCrackin said:
Hey Janq,

Glad your and your pup is ok - imagine if say u and mrs. and baby janq were on scene - what would you different?

last 4th of july my family and friends were almost in the middle of a confrontation which included a pit and akita - i had plenty of distance between us and had the kids all packed up ready for extraction.

this is a sad day and age we live in - i mean what the fuck are people thinking?
'Crackin,

If my family had been there I'd have walked them immediately to my right, and I've done this before in another instance, employing my good friend Mr. Distance between us and the wolves as well as using parked cars as barriers toward buying time. Mrs. Janq being the hard head she is would have questioned my actions and me being the direct person I am would have replied calmly something in the line of "Do not debate this, just follow me NOW"...and then she would realize my spidey senses have gone off and would do as directed.
At this stage in my life I'm no longer of the mind to be thetough guy, I just want to go about my day and way in peace in one piece. If it means walking around avoiding trouble rather than going through it then I'll take that minor inconvenience of an option. Especially so if I'm carrying.

- Janq
 

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Janq said:
MrMcCrackin said:
Hey Janq,

Glad your and your pup is ok - imagine if say u and mrs. and baby janq were on scene - what would you different?

last 4th of july my family and friends were almost in the middle of a confrontation which included a pit and akita - i had plenty of distance between us and had the kids all packed up ready for extraction.

this is a sad day and age we live in - i mean what the fuck are people thinking?
'Crackin,

If my family had been there I'd have walked them immediately to my right, and I've done this before in another instance, employing my good friend Mr. Distance between us and the wolves as well as using parked cars as barriers toward buying time. Mrs. Janq being the hard head she is would have questioned my actions and me being the direct person I am would have replied calmly something in the line of "Do not debate this, just follow me NOW"...and then she would realize my spidey senses have gone off and would do as directed.
At this stage in my life I'm no longer of the mind to be thetough guy, I just want to go about my day and way in peace in one piece. If it means walking around avoiding trouble rather than going through it then I'll take that minor inconvenience of an option. Especially so if I'm carrying.

- Janq



good to use ur head - if you have a way out, take it!

i work down town and its kinda like at any given moment a left turn will take you to south central LA.

recently i was leavin early on friday to head out to the range and i was flagged down immediately exiting the parking garage. the lady was very attractive and young, i also noticed that two other people quickly ducted away behind the building once she approached my truck.

this made my spidie sense tingle - so i half rolled down the window and had my strong arm in position to quickly clear kydex if need be. she asked if i could help her with her car and she pointed to the parking garage. i asked what about it - she said her car wouldnt start and she needed a jump. at this point there was no way in hell i was to assist in anything she had going on. i asked her if she cables - she gave me a strange look with a "huh?" i said jumper cables, do u have them? she replied no - i appologized and pointed to the local mechanic shop directly in front of us and told her to inquire with them for assistance.

i just knew i was almost a victum of car jackin


punk kids lookin for a good time or whatever
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Bump...

While looking for a totally different thread from the past I came up on this item and reread it.
I'm bumping it because IMHO this is good stuff that folks should A) Know and B) Remember/memorize.
The latest story about that guy with the shotgun who killed two people he thought/thinks were breaking into his neighbors house, he did not have J.A.M. (or in VT 'A.O.J.' and if he'd known of this then he'd not be jammed up like he is today.

Additional reading on this subject can be found at:
* http://www.gutterfighting.org/LethalForce.html
* http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp
* http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx
* http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html
* 'Shoot/Don't Shoot Study Guide 2003' - http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/lawenforcement/study/shootordont.pdf



Be safe out there....!

- Janq
 
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