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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As reported by The Plain Dealer:

A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited
Holdup victim had concealed-carry permit
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Damian G. Guevara and Patrick O'Donnell
Plain Dealer Reporters

Damon Wells is the man gun supporters were imagining when they fought for the right to carry concealed weapons.

He had a permit to carry his gun, and he had the gun on him when a pair of teenage thieves approached him Saturday night on his front porch in Cleveland.

When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest, police said. Arthur Buford, 15, died after stumbling away and collapsing on a sidewalk near East 134th Street and Kinsman Road.

City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged for what appears to be the first time a concealed-carry permit holder has shot and killed an attacker.

Nonetheless, the shooting reignited the debate that flared three years ago when Ohio's concealed-carry law took effect.

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's accomplice disappeared after the shooting and had not been caught as of Monday night. Police found a .38-caliber handgun in the mail chute of a nearby house. They believe it belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson firearm from Wells as evidence, the police report shows.

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "Anytime somebody dies, it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

rvine said it was "great that a potential victim is able to continue his life instead of having a criminal take it."

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

A man who answered a phone number for Wells refused to comment and hung up. No one answered the door at Wells' home.

Plain Dealer reporters Jesse Tinsley and Brie Zeltner and researcher Cheryl Diamond contributed to this story.

The story can be found at; http://www.cleveland.com/news/plain...uyahoga/117740407596600.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

- Janq

Commentary:
Yet another real world demonstration of the community results toward what come upon we as lawful citizens defending ourselves and lives from criminals. Even as the criminal in this case was a child by age his actions and decisions were completely adult and in my mind as a citizen, parent, and potential prey he became an adult the moment he decided to team up with a buddy, grab a gun, and make the concious decison to attack a citizen at his home.
This man was completely within his rights by public law, morality, and the way of the jungle. Still though the BG is touted as the victim by the community and it's as though the citizen was supposed to play his part by rolling over and if necessary die too.
Be mindful if the worst of worst happens to you those amongst your own community may turn against you just as they have many times toward others including this case. Be prepared for that mentally and emotionally.
 

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sad that he was soo young - yet that he felt drivin to take up a weapon to commit crimes



it still amazes me that the BG's family sees nothing wrong with their kin's actions - but condems the victum of the crime
 

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cmon now. i dont think anyone is delusional here. no where did it quote anyone saying they thought the actions of the BG where lagit. no one said robbing a man at gun point was O.K. they just feel that something should be done because hes dead. its entirely illogical and ridiculous to think Wells should suffer ANY type of repercussion for his actions. but its equally ridiculous to assume a family can simply accept that their son was shot and killed and the 'murderer' will walk away. if they are realistic people they will probably come to terms with the facts soon enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
NN,

The following is quoted from the article...

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."
And thats just what was written in the space constrained article.
People say the same things and more very often when a scenario like this goes down be the BG a child or adult.

- Janq
 

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If I were chillin on my porch and 2 POS's approached me wielding gun/s, I would have done the same. I'm not waiting to see if they're serious about killing me or just threatening. Life > death.
 

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good riddance... He would have ended up killing soneone when they faught back one day.

Yes its a shame he was so young but these little punks can kill you as well as an old man.
 

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you essentially quoted exactly what my post was talking about. no one is saying the kid was in the right. no one is saying that the kids actions should not warrant punishment, or even that he did not deserve to die by the hands of his victim. they are confused as to why his killer is not being arrested while "my cousin is dead".

my previous post was simply remarking on Crackins comment; "it still amazes me that the BG's family sees nothing wrong with their kin's actions". it doesn't say a band of 30 kids who think robbing people at gun point is ok gathered at a memorial for the BG.

if my son was shot and killed i would be upset if his killer was not in cuffs. i dont care WHAT the circumstances are. are you sure my son had a gun? was it recovered from his body at the scene? was it real? did it have his prints on it? was it simply brandished or did he point it at his intended victim?

from what ive read its simply one mans story about why their is a dead 15 year old on the sidewalk by his house with 4 bullets from his gun in his chest. i see no evidence or witness's. the boys accomplice fled the scene, did not attempt to help his friend and has not yet been apprehended.

FTFA:
When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest.

thats a rather vague statement, did the boy with the gun get shot? did words get exchanged before shots where fired? why was a gun recovered from a nearby mail schute?

to say the friends and family of the dead kid have no relivent reason to question the circumstances is, i think, simply incorrect. if any self defense killing deserves time in court, its this one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
NN,

I would go with that thought line if it weren't for as reported; "City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged...".
If my son were found to have done this type of crime and were shot down I too would be upset...with my son and myself for not doing better.
I might not like the guy for shooting and killing my son but I would understand, as he could have been me as we sit on our own porch daily to eat with our children when the weather allows. I can only imagine being walked up on by some kids with a gun and threatened.

Anyway I post this thread as yet another example toward the after effects of a shooting, regardless of the circumstances involved.
Even as this gentleman has been effectively no billed he still has to deal with and live amongst a community that is upset and that is very possibly a real outcome for us amongst our own.

- Janq
 

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Janq said:
If my son were found to have done this type of crime and were shot down I too would be upset...with my son and myself for not doing better.
I might not like the guy for shooting and killing my son but I would understand, as he could have been me as we sit on our own porch daily to eat with our children when the weather allows. I can only imagine being walked up on by some kids with a gun and threatened.

- Janq
Exactly. We would have to understand the outcome if it were our own children because we are rationally thinking people. You'd have to be crazy or lying to ourselves to think otherwise.
 

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granted - we are not reading the police report of the events

just local news from the event - by which can omit or sway data altogether



now like you if it were my son - who is not yet 15, that did the crime - understand i would be upset

but also understand for every action there is a reaction


why did he have to die? - thats not for us to debate based on a new report


was it justified? - only the evidence at the scene will tell the story and lay the blame


NN - your are correct - i assumed by the news article that this was the stance of the family - which isnt really clear eitherway
 

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Do you even need a license to conceal carry on/in your own property?
I know some states you don't.
 

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Given the usual spate of ridiculous lawsuits after a case like this (e.g. blaming the gun manufacturer) I'd almost like to see a suit brought against the parents/family as they are, as guardians, responsible for their children. Granted, that's essentially ridiculous since you can't actually fully control what other people do and some kids just won't "turn out right" but at least it'd be closer to placing blame on the right person than the usual "sue everything and anything" reaction.

Just random babbling, carry on.

:alien:Petrus
 

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Petrus said:
Given the usual spate of ridiculous lawsuits after a case like this (e.g. blaming the gun manufacturer) I'd almost like to see a suit brought against the parents/family as they are, as guardians, responsible for their children. Granted, that's essentially ridiculous since you can't actually fully control what other people do and some kids just won't "turn out right" but at least it'd be closer to placing blame on the right person than the usual "sue everything and anything" reaction.

Just random babbling, carry on.

:alien:Petrus

depending on the local state laws - that could totally happen!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Yep ^^

As well parents are legally and financially responsbile in most states for the actions of their children.
The victim would be in his right to sue the parents but considering their loss I doubt he or most people would do so.

Gun-Nut no I don't believe so as ones front porch is part of their home and most states that allow gun ownership at all do not require a license twoard ownership within ones home and on their own property. Thing is though not that many states have 'Castle' laws and a person might actually be required to retreat/flee as a primary option as opposed to being legally allowed to stand their ground _at their own home_ (!).
In this case the attackers were trespassing to start, carrying a firearm illegally (without a permit), brandishing, armed robbery, home invasion, and use of a firearm in commision of a felony.

IMHO if your kids go out and do crap like this then the parent(s)/guardian should be penalized as well. Parents need to be more involved in a direct way toward their childrens lives & activities and being held responsible legally for their childrens actions and their own parental inaction might make a difference toward parents who otherwise flat out do not care or simply say ehh I can't control what my kid(s) does once they leave my house.
That's bullshit and as much starts in birth year one forward.

Regardless though the point of this thread is to show that even if you are legally right/allowed to do so, defending yourself can result in your community turning against you.

- Janq

"Two men enter. One man leaves." - Dr. Dealgood, 'Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome'
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Shooting sparks neighborhood anger

As reported by The Plain Dealer:

Shooting sparks neighborhood anger
Vigil held at house where teen was killed

UPDATED: 12 :52 p.m. EDT, April 26, 2007

Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Gabriel Baird
Plain Dealer Reporter

Damon Wells and his home appear no longer safe.

The .40-caliber handgun that Wells carries legally for defense may not be enough to protect the 25-year-old man and his home in the Mount Pleasant neighborhood.

Sunday night, a day after Wells shot and killed a 15-year-old who threatened him with a gun on his porch, Wells' home was under siege. Police sent a car to guard it.

Now the doors on his house are boarded up; the windows, too.

No one appears to be home.

Outside Wells' home Tuesday night, a crowd of about 50 people gathered to mourn Arthur "Ace Boogie" Buford, whom Wells killed during the attempted robbery.

Vigil organizers called for young men to turn away from violence and from turning on each other. They called on those present not to be poisoned by rap music that promotes violence and not to support music companies that produce that music.

Near Wells' home, a utility pole has become a makeshift shrine where sympathizers are leaving stuffed animals, notes and balloons.

Most of those gathering there are teenagers, and they are angry, shocked and sad. They say that no matter what police and court officials say, Buford never did anything wrong.

They don't care that Cleveland prosecutors said the shooting appears to have happened in self-defense. They want justice.

Buford was on probation for robbery, said Lt. Thomas Stacho, police spokesman. He had robbed a couple of guys just five blocks away from Wells' house in August 2006.

Cleveland police are still looking for Buford's accomplice. Homicide detectives met with 4th District detectives on Tuesday to compare notes and look at similar robberies from the area in hopes of finding their suspect.

Police recovered surveillance camera tapes Tuesday from the Murtis H. Taylor Multi-Service Center on Kinsman Road. The building's cameras point toward Wells' house.

The video appears to have some value, Stacho said. There is nothing to contradict what Wells told police, Stacho said, but the video may contain information about what took place before and after the shooting.

The video quality is poor, but the tape will be enhanced, he said.

Police dealt with a similar case in 2004. Five youths tried to rob 59-year-old Bill Singleton outside his check-cashing business on Lake Shore Boulevard. He had recently obtained a concealed-weapon permit. He and Rhyan Ikner, 17, exchanged gunfire. Both died.

Even though Buford's accomplice didn't fire a shot, he could face murder or manslaughter charges because someone was killed as a result of his committing a felony.

"He's going to have to account for the death of his friend," said Commander Ed Tomba.

Meanwhile, rumors are circulating among the teenagers. Several of Buford's friends, who declined to give their names, said Wells fired seven shots - the first few from his porch and then more after chasing Buford down the block.

Stacho said Wells fired three shots.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Plain Dealer reporter Jesse Tinsley contributed to this story.

The story can be found at; http://www.cleveland.com/news/plain...uyahoga/117749015813670.xml&coll=2&thispage=2

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The legal gun won this fight

As featured in The Plain Dealer:

The legal gun won this fight

Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Kevin O'Brien
Plain Dealer Columnist

Arthur Buford is dead, and that's a sad thing.

Arthur had his whole life ahead of him. He was just a kid, after all - a 15-year-old freshman at John F. Kennedy High School.

What he didn't know, as he approached Damon Wells' house in southeast Cleveland on Saturday night, was that his whole life consisted of just a few more seconds.

Arthur had a gun, which he and another youngster apparently thought would give them the power to take something from Wells, who was standing on the front porch.

Whatever Arthur's plan was, it unraveled. It didn't account for the possibility that the guy who looked like an easy mark would have permission from the state of Ohio to carry a concealed weapon, or that he would bother to arm himself just to walk to the neighborhood store and back.

Arthur's plan depended on catching Wells off-guard. But Wells wasn't off-guard. He had a plan of his own, against the day when someone like Arthur might come along.

Wells' plan was to avoid becoming a crime victim, and that's how Arthur ended up dying of several gunshot wounds to the chest.

Wells hasn't given The Plain Dealer much more than monosyllables, and I don't blame him. What would he say? That he's sorry he was prepared? That he's sorry he defended himself?

Unless he's a man without a conscience, he probably finds it regrettable that it came down to a him-or-me situation. But it's clear that he's not a man devoid of the desire to go on living, so he's got to be glad that it turned out to be "him, not me." But you can't just come out and say that sort of thing without the sensitivity police coming after you, so the less said the better.

The real police, however, aren't planning to charge Wells with anything. They say the shooting was justified.

It's just about impossible to argue that, but here come the arguments.

Arthur's relatives and friends are upset that the law isn't going after Wells.

They want someone to blame - other than Arthur. But they shouldn't be allowed to bully the police or the city administration into taking action against a guy who was minding his own business on his own porch when suddenly confronted by an armed teenager.

Then there's the conceptual side of the argument - the big-picture side that says citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns and certainly shouldn't be allowed to walk around with them.

This kind of incident proves knee-jerk gun foes wrong, and they know it.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it [a legally carried concealed weapon] to stop a crime," Toby Hoover of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence grudgingly told a Plain Dealer reporter.

But there are more than a few such cases. There are thousands every year, all over the country.

And where are the statistics on gun crimes committed by holders of concealed-carry permits? Something tells me that if they happened at anything approaching the rate of the hundreds of thousands of crimes perpetrated against unarmed Americans every year, we'd be hearing more about them.

The fact is, the concealed-carry "threat" has turned out to be malarkey, just as it was in the many states that debated such laws long before Ohio.

Three of my last four columns have had to do with young people getting killed, and that's a sad thing. In two of those cases, a teenage boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing wrong when someone shot him.

In the third, 32 college students were doing what they were supposed to do.

After I wrote about last week's outrage at Virginia Tech University, I got a series of sneering e-mails from a reader, along the lines of, "Next, you'll be suggesting that teachers should be armed."

I think I'll take him up on that.

Damon Wells is about the same age as the students killed at Virginia Tech. He's got his whole life still ahead of him, and because he was prepared, he'll actually get to live it - presuming he escapes thug-enforced street justice.

How different things might have been at Virginia Tech if Seung-Hui Cho hadn't had the only gun on campus.

O'Brien is The Plain Dealer's deputy editorial director.

To reach Kevin O'Brien

[email protected], 216-999-4146

The Op-Ed can be found at; http://www.cleveland.com/news/plain...opinion/117748999513670.xml&coll=2&thispage=3

- Janq
 

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yea - i am not surprised




thinkin how it might have gone down in a place i am more familure: baltimore, phily and DC

i am surprise Wells' home hasnt been set on fire yet
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
These are pics featured in a similar thread toward this event at SigForum.com.

Bad guy Arthur Buford's peace vigil pole


Victim Damon Wells' home


Source - http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/830601935/m/797104319

Again folks this is serious business.
Feel how you might about the specifis of this specific case and the BG being 15, the bottom line and point is that if you defend yourself with success whether or not the BG dies it is very much possible that you yourself will be victimized a second time by your community, the BGs community, and possibly even the legal system too (!).

I cannot imagine my own home looking like Wells' being boarded up and abandoned because I was moments prior minding my own damn business in/about my own home. Only to be run up on by some dick head(s) with intent to harm me and I succesfully get the drop on him/them only to be treated as though I were the criminal and immoral one.

- Janq
 

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ok... i retract most of my previous statements. this has officially entered "fucking bullshit" mode. i was a dumbass, ill admit it, and made silly assumptions like people in this world have a cunt hairs worth of common sence.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
BTW Wells is still on the hook to pay his mortgage on a house he can no longer feel safe to live in nor can he sell for even fair market value because it's boarded up, abandoned, and is the sight of community haterism.
An average citizen like you or me would be very quickly pushed into personal bankruptcy by this result alone...nevermind the cost of retaining an attorney to defend yourself in a court of criminal law (he got very lucky to that end) and then next against the BG and/or his family & heirs in civil court, to which they have by law ~6 yrs. to build & file a case.

People make like defense of ourselves, our family, our home, our livelyhood/business, or our property is some sort of justifaible joke.
Like as long as you follow the rules and keep it reasonably legal then hey you'll be okay and everything will work out.
Real world real life practical experiences do not support that thought & theory. Folks who have gotten away unscathed have been fortunate. We all though should expect the worst such as this and hope for better.

This is example is one of the very many reasons whay I myself have stated in the past that if the choice/opportunity is afforded to me I'd choose to let a robber rob me or my house of insured and replaceable product than fight back with lethal force.
Quite simply I cannot afford the above nor can my children who some day might dream to go to college or for that matter sleep in their own damn bedroom rather than that of a hotel room.

Call me a pussy or whatever (as folk @ OT have), that's fine with me. I'll be a pussy with an insurance claim and motherfuckers not throwing rocks through my windows.
But like Mr. Damon Wells I would resort to the last and final option of lethal force only if I had no other viable or visible option available. I doubt I'd feel good about it though even as I would hopefully survive.

- Janq
 
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