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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so i was doin a little research on das interweb about the 5.7x28mm


needless to say - it appears to be a poor performer


has anyone heard or tested differently?






Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
yet - find:


SS190 Duty Round
The SS190 AP ball FMJ is designated as Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition, designed to penetrate body armor. Its sale to civilians is restricted. The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core. It is interesting to note that the SS109 FMJ bullet is essentially of the same design, except it uses a lead core with a steel penetrator. The SS109 is frequently found in civilian-legal M855 loads sold as surplus or contract-overrun ammunition. FN Herstal has stated that the SS190 round will easily penetrate protections that stop normal pistol rounds, but will not penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO round such as Level III armor. The SS190 has demonstrated varying penetration depths of about 10 to 13 inches in gelatin testing by various agencies. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy forensics laboratory tested SS190 fired out of a P90 into 10% ordnance gelatin, 10% gelatin covered with heavy clothing, and 10% gelatin covered with Level II soft armor. The average penetration depth in all test events was approximately 10.4 inches; the temporal wound cavity did not exceed 3.75 inches. Testing of the P90 done by Dr. Gary K. Roberts DDS showed an average of 12 inches penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. Houston, TX SWAT has also done testing with similar results. Many have asserted that these figures are not deep enough, as the current FBI minimum penetration depth is 12 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin.
 

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The problem is that people keep comparing it to pistol/SMG rounds and relative resulting visual performance e.g. 9MM when if you check with FN they themselves note it was never designed to function the same as a pistol round.
It's a rifle round that happens to be shot from an SMG and pistol format firearm.
As well it performs entirely unlike a pistol round be it 9MM or .22.

I've posted about this before providing pics and links at OT.
Run a search on my name there toward this and it should come up.

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Janq said:
The problem is that people keep comparing it to pistol/SMG rounds and relative resulting visual performance e.g. 9MM when if you check with FN they themselves note it was never designed to function the same as a pistol round.
It's a rifle round that happens to be shot from an SMG and pistol format firearm.
As well it performs entirely unlike a pistol round be it 9MM or .22.

I've posted about this before providing pics and links at OT.
Run a search on my name there toward this and it should come up.

- Janq

will do - tanx!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
ok - found a bunch of posts

unfortunately some of the data point reference Glock Talk

so i guess i need to do some searchin over there - ugg



still hopin google drums up soem recent ballistics tests with the civy ammo
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
fatcat said:


tanx!


Special thanks to J.K. for sponsoring this test in full.

Cartridge : 5.7x28mm FN SS195 lead free FMJ (Part # 10700013)

Firearm : FN PS90 rifle (16.1" barrel length) and FN 5.7 handgun (4.8" barrel length), as indicated

Block calibration : 9.1cm @ 591 ft/sec

Shot 1 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2157 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 2.1" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and partially spit the core out of the jacket. Final penetration depth was 7.6" and recovered weight was 28.1gr. Pictured above.

Shot 2 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1969 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 3.8" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and spit the core section out of the jacket. The core material penetrated to 7.9" and the maximum penetration depth was 9.7". Bullet recovered at 27.6gr weight. Pictured below.

At this point, the test setup was altered. At the request of the test's sponsor, the potential liability of the tested bullets in the case of an overpenetration of the target in an interior room was assessed. This was accomplished by the cutting of the gelatin block into two 8"x6"x6" blocks, placing one piece at a linear distance of 4" from the face of the FBI 'interior wall' test fixture (two pieces of 0.5" wallboard, on a 2x4 frame), while placing the other block 4" back from the rearmost wallboard panel. This setup is illustrated by the attached photograph of the test setup.

Block calibration for this event was 10.5cm @ 590 ft/sec.

Shot 3 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2153 ft/sec, penetrated to 8.0", exited the back of the gelatin block and the jacket section was recovered after through-penetration of both interior wall panels. Bullet fragments did not penetrate the gelatin block. Core section was spit and was not recovered.

Shot 4 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1983 ft/sec, bullet was not recovered, but by inspection of the wallboard directly behind the block, no part of the bullet penetrated the rearmost drywall panel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
compared to what i currently carry, minus the fact its loaded with 165gr gold dots:

Firearm : Recoil-operated handgun with 3.46" barrel length

Ammunition : Various .40S&W

Block calibration : All depths are corrected, except where noted (From 12.5cm @ 607 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Federal 165gr Tactical HST HP (part #P40HST3). Impacted at 1064 ft/sec. Penetrated to 11.6" (using velocity range of 800-1000 ft/sec from Figure 10-10 in Bullet Penetration) and was recovered at 0.703" average diameter.

Shot 2 - Winchester 165gr Ranger Bonded JHP (part #RA40BA). Impacted at 996 ft/sec. Penetrated to 13.5" and was recovered at 0.570" average diameter.

Shot 3 - Winchester 180gr Ranger SXT (part #RA40T). Impacted at 894 ft/sec. Penetrated to 12.6" and was recovered at 0.617" average diameter.

Shot 4 - Remington 165gr Golden Saber (part #GS40SWA). Impacted at 994 ft/sec. Penetrated to 11.6" and was recovered at 0.661" average diameter.

Shot 5 - Cor-Bon 165gr JHP (part #40165/20). Impacted at '2031' ft/sec (chronograph malfunction). No correction was attempted as the bullet experienced heavy fragmentation - fragments were recovered at 9.1", 9.5", 9.6", 13.4" and 14.0". The jacket was recovered at 16.0" plus the 4" needed to travel to the front of the polyester bullet arresting box. The lead core was recovered at unknown distance in the bullet arresting box at 0.469" average diameter.

All shots fired at 10 feet distance from the face of the Glock 27 muzzle to the front face of the gelatin block. The picture of the block depicts the penetration track of the 165gr Golden Saber. Please note that no preference to any brand of tested ammunition should be inferred by the relative orders of the ammunition, as they were tested or pictured.

and comparable 9mm +p gold dots:


Special thanks to loplop of www.TheHighRoad.org for funding this test in full.

Cartridge : 9x19mm Luger Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot JHP

Firearm : Glock 26 (3.5" barrel length)

Block Calibration : All depths corrected (From 11.0cm @ 596 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Impacted at 1201 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.2" and was recovered at 0.679" average diameter.

Shot 2 - Impacted at 1218 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.2" and was recovered at 0.691" average diameter.

Shot 3 - Impacted at 1216 ft/sec, penetrated to 10.3" and was recovered at 0.704" average diameter.

Shot 4 - Impacted at 1222 ft/sec, penetrated to 10.6" and was recovered at 0.682" average diameter.

Shot 5 - Impacted at 1208 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.9" and was recovered at 0.711" average diameter.


and lets not forget the good old .45 acp:

Cartridge : .45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P (Load # 23969)

Firearm : Recoil-operated semi-auto with 3.8" barrel length.

Calibration : '591' ± 0.500 ft/sec at 8.7 ± 0.05cm BB penetration.

Velocities not recorded due to failing light (chronograph malfunctioned on calibration shot).

Shot 1 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.668 ± 0.0005”

Shot 2 penetrated to 12.4 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.665 ± 0.0005”

Shot 3 penetrated to 12.1 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.659 ± 0.0005”

Shot 4 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.667 ± 0.0005”

Shot 5 penetrated to 13.0 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.661 ± 0.0005”
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
fatcat said:
I guess I should have posted that site when I found it weeks ago..

absolutely - as you can tell, i wasnt impressed at all - LOL



j/k
 

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Maybe I'm having a blonde moment but i don't see the value of these tests. They compare 5.7x28 FMJ's to 9mm 40 and 45 HP's and JHP's. How is that a realistic comparison?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Jeremy said:
Maybe I'm having a blonde moment but i don't see the value of these tests. They compare 5.7x28 FMJ's to 9mm 40 and 45 HP's and JHP's. How is that a realistic comparison?

great point - here are the flavors of 5.7x28mm:

SS190 Duty Round
The SS190 AP ball FMJ is designated as Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition, designed to penetrate body armor. Its sale to civilians is restricted. The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core. It is interesting to note that the SS109 FMJ bullet is essentially of the same design, except it uses a lead core with a steel penetrator. The SS109 is frequently found in civilian-legal M855 loads sold as surplus or contract-overrun ammunition. FN Herstal has stated that the SS190 round will easily penetrate protections that stop normal pistol rounds, but will not penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO round such as Level III armor. The SS190 has demonstrated varying penetration depths of about 10 to 13 inches in gelatin testing by various agencies. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy forensics laboratory tested SS190 fired out of a P90 into 10% ordnance gelatin, 10% gelatin covered with heavy clothing, and 10% gelatin covered with Level II soft armor. The average penetration depth in all test events was approximately 10.4 inches; the temporal wound cavity did not exceed 3.75 inches. Testing of the P90 done by Dr. Gary K. Roberts DDS showed an average of 12 inches penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. Houston, TX SWAT has also done testing with similar results. Many have asserted that these figures are not deep enough, as the current FBI minimum penetration depth is 12 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin.


SS191 Tracer
Combustible chemicals packed in the rear of the projectile create a contrail visible up to 200 meters. The SS191's ballistics are almost identical to those of the SS190. SS191 tracer ammunition has a red tip. It was previously designated "L191". Its sale to civilians is restricted.


SS192 Hollow Point
Features a hollow point bullet. SS192 ammunition uses a 28-grain (1.8 g) unmarked hollow tip, with an aluminum core. SS192 can be differentiated from SS195LF (lead-free; see below) by the brass-colored primer. Production of this round has been discontinued, and it has been replaced by SS195LF.


SS193 Sub Sonic
The SS193 cartridge features a 55-grain (3.6 g) Sierra Game King FMJBT (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail) projectile. The SS193's low muzzle velocity eliminates the distinctive "crack" created by supersonic rounds when used in conjunction with the P90 Gemtech sound suppressor. The SS193 suffers from greatly reduced penetration and range, but benefits from slightly lower recoil. The white colored bullet tip can identify SS193 subsonic ammunition. It was previously designated "Sb193." Its sale to civilians is restricted.


T194 training/duty
The T194 training round is an early version of the SS192. Visually, it is the same as the SS192 but has a green tip and silver-colored primer. The bullet weight/velocity of the T194 are identical to the SS192 and the newer SS195. The T194 round was discontinued in 2002.


SS195LF Lead Free Round
The SS195LF cartridge features a lead-free primer, and lead-free bullet with similar ballistics to the SS192 round. It features a .224 inch (5.7 mm) 28-grain (1.77 g) copper jacketed aluminum core bullet. The SS195LF cartridge may be identified by the unmarked, hollow void at the tip and the silver-colored lead-free primer. SS195LF is available to civilians. Note: Some PS90 operators may experience intermittent problems with SS195LF lot FNB06C971-016 [2].


SS196SR Sporting Round
The discontinued SS196SR cartridge was replaced with SS197SR. Civilians can still purchase remaining lots of SS196SR. The SS196SR cartridge features a 40-grain (2.6 g), .224 inch (5.7 mm) diameter Hornady V-Max bullet. The polycarbonate tip in the V-Max bullet enhances expansion of the bullet. The red colored tip differentiates the SS196SR from the blue colored tip of SS197SR.


SS197SR Sporting Round
Fiocchi currently manufactures SS197SR under contract for FN Herstal. The SS197SR cartridge uses the same 40-grain (2.6 g) .224 inch (5.7 mm) Hornady V-Max projectile as the SS196SR, but it is loaded for a slightly higher muzzle velocity. The bullets have a blue-colored polycarbonate tip. The first SS197SR boxes exhibit the modern FN blue and black colored packaging as shown in the photographs. Newer SS197SR boxes have a similar exterior appearance to the SS196SR and SS195LF boxes. These white cardboard boxes have an adhesive label, marked "Made in Italy”, which helps prevent cartridges from falling out of the box during shipment. The colored boxes rely solely on the flaps and do not use an adhesive label. SS197SR is available to civilians
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
first test was with the AP ss190 round and its performance in gel (gov and leo ONLY)


second was the the ss195 (civi ammo)
 

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Jeremy said:
Maybe I'm having a blonde moment but i don't see the value of these tests. They compare 5.7x28 FMJ's to 9mm 40 and 45 HP's and JHP's. How is that a realistic comparison?
It isn't and that's exactly the problem and my own point prior.
Apples and oranges though both just happen to be carried in the same cart.
Might as well toss in the comparator mix .223. .17 HMR, and a 12 ga. slug too as they will penetrate various levels of armor as well and can be fired from either a rifle or 'pistol' form factor firearm.

The 5.7 works as per it's design and intent, which does not include deep penetration through a foot or more of ballistic gelatin and such.




The 5.7 x28mm does not function or kill like a 9MM or any other such tradition pistol/SMG round, as per it's intent and design.
If you know and understand this then there is absolutely no surprise that it does not perform as such in ballistic gel. In kind no pistol round including 9MM works like the 5.7 x28MM does as depicted in the ballistic gel result pics above.

I personally would rather take my chances and be shot with a 9mm than with a 5.7 x 28mm even as it might be smaller and lighter in bullet size & weight.

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
+1

its the tumbling inside the body for up to 9 inches that scares the hell outa me - after it went through my vest (that i dont have - LOL)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
i will tell ya that i know of 2 folks that carry the 5.7x28mm for ccw and have a p90 in regular use

then again both of them are 6'9" and 300lbs - so the 5-7 looks like a g26 in their hands! LOL
 

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Yep...it's method of killing is not deep penetration but by dramatic and significant production of damage to ones internal structures hence it's boattail design induced tumbling effect and the resultant explosion effect of the wound track as seen with it in ballistic gel. Also normal humans & animals are filled with hard bones and semi stiff internal organs and are not filled with gel. The 5.7 bounces and skips around all over your insides rotating, bruising organs, breaking & chipping bones (which themselves become projectiles), and cutting internal veins or arteries resulting in significant immobilizing damage.
As well the round tends to stay inside the body cavity of the target rather than zipping through out leaving a relatively minor wound track (unarmored) allowing the person to remain mobile and thus in the fight.
I do not understand why folks don't get/understand this especially considering the round has now been out and in play for over 5 yrs. now.

I'd love to own one especially considering the price for ammo is as of my check last week below that of current .45 ACP prices.
I'm still kicking myself for not buying a FiveSeven pistol when at my local shop they were just $700 back before I moved from VA to MA where they are not legal to be sold. :(

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Janq said:
Yep...it's method of killing is not deep penetration but by dramatic and significant production of damage to ones internal structures hence it's boattail design induced tumbling effect and the resultant explosion effect of the wound track as seen with it in ballistic gel. Also normal humans & animals are filled with hard bones and semi stiff internal organs and are not filled with gel. The 5.7 bounces and skips around all over your insides rotating, bruising organs, breaking & chipping bones (which themselves become projectiles), and cutting internal veins or arteries resulting in significant immobilizing damage.
As well the round tends to stay inside the body cavity of the target rather than zipping through out leaving a relatively minor wound track (unarmored) allowing the person to remain mobile and thus in the fight.
I do not understand why folks don't get/understand this especially considering the round has now been out and in play for over 5 yrs. now.

I'd love to own one especially considering the price for ammo is as of my check last week below that of current .45 ACP prices.
I'm still kicking myself for not buying a FiveSeven pistol when at my local shop they were just $700 back before I moved from VA to MA where they are not legal to be sold. :(

- Janq

so wait - in MA you can own one, but you cant buy one from a dealer in MA?
 

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MrMcCrackin said:
so wait - in MA you can own one, but you cant buy one from a dealer in MA?
Yep.

If I had bought it in VA and then moved here with it and a cache of ammo I'd be fine.
Purchasing eithr though in MA is restricted thanks to this states crap ass Attorney general and an attachment to a 'consumer protection law' being applied toward firearms and ammunition deemed unsafe or unsuitable for civilians e.g. non police or military.

When i moved here my Sig GSR was then not on the allowed list yet it was totally legal for me to posses it as I'd moved here from out of state with it already purchased.
They are now on the MA list...nearly five years after debuting.

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
just wow - dats sucks mang
 
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