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Discussion Starter #1
I just felt like pissing on the hornet’s nest you know. But for real what’s the best riffle caliber nobody can say .22 got that personally I love .308 Winchester & 7.62x39 unfortunately the Marines shoot pea shooters that I probably need to shoot more often before I get to basic but I hate .223 so much gaaa! Wait what? Wolverines!
 

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depends who your fighting right? hell a .22 or a 9mili can kill you. maybe it depends how hard you want to kill someone?

honestly it depends on the task at hand. obviously higher caliber rounds usually have a higher rate of travel and more penetration. the downside is the round usualy kicks harder, its heaver, more expensive and requires a larger firearm to shoot effectively.

it would be somewhat unwieldy to clear a small apartment complex with a .30 cal rifle like the BAR. a lot would agree that it would be easier to clear simmaler rooms with a small automatic like a MP5, as apposed to a smaller 7.62 rifle like the AK47.

ill agree that a 5.56 is not necessarily the best round for open warfare. why the US military has used 5.56 weapons almost exclusively for GI as long as they have astounds me. and not only that, but the rifle they choose to send that round down range.

all in all there is no BEST. thats why there is such a large verity of ammunition in the world. if there was one BEST round then everyone would use it.

although larger round = larger gun is not allways true
hence: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0800/851.htm
(entry weapon my ass cheeks)
 

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Ducman said:
How can you hate a round that you know nothing about?
Indeed...

I love 5.56mm as much if not more than .308, the ballistics of the 5.56 is truely impressive for there size. I could go on and on about this... lets show some proof.

Just because its a small round and no recoil DOES NOT MAKE IT A PEA SHOOTER!





 

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fatcat said:
Indeed...

I love 5.56mm as much if not more than .308, the ballistics of the 5.56 is truely impressive for there size. I could go on and on about this... lets show some proof.

Just because its a small round and no recoil DOES NOT MAKE IT A PEA SHOOTER!






Thats the beauty of .223 (5.56)... It's a small round, doesn't have too much penetrating power when it comes to metal and such, but it will f' up a human.
 

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Ducman said:
How can you hate a round that you know nothing about?
He's a kid. Kid's usually know nothing and demonstrate that quite handily. Old farts like me try very hard to not reveal just how stupid we are.
 

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In the book "Black Hawk Down" one of the Delta operators talked about how they were having problems with the ammo they'd been issued and being able to stop the Somalis in their tracks. The Army had issued them carbide tipped rounds which were great for punching through light body armor and such, but would just pass through the unarmored Somalis and would not kill unless they were struck in the head or heart. Granted, this wasn't every person they shot, but it was enough that some of the Delta guys were frustrated. A mention was also made of Sgt. Randall Shugart, one of the Delta snipers who went in to support the Super Six Four crash site (and went on to win the Medal of Honor with MSgt. Gary Gordon). The operator told of how Shugart stuck with an accurized M14 sniper rifle, even though it was a fairly large and ungainly weapon compared to the M4s some of the other operators carried. His defense was that he preferred whatever he shot to stay down (referring to the 7.62 round).

My own personal feelings are that 5.56 is a very viable round, and it's been doing rather well for a few decades now. It does have some advantages over larger rounds, including lighter weight (you can carry more of it) and there are some extremely good platforms for the round that are versatile enough to both engage at a distance and be compact enough for room clearing operations. The History Channel just did an extremely good Modern Marvels episode on the M-16 that was very informative, if you get the chance I highly recommend it.
 

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I Personally like the 5.45 soviet roudn better. Love its reputation as the poison bullet. That being said, for urban combat the 5.56 is viable, but for an old type war in an open area....give me a long action 30 cal weapon.

My AR is built with M16 parts......its sucks ass. Hand me an FAL over that shit any day, or if I must have a 5.56 weapon, a HK33, CAL, or AR 70/90
 

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Nose Nuggets, I just have to say that that link was awesome... I'll take one of those. :D
 

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I wish to add a few things.....the 5.56 needs a certain velocity to fragment properly and the round was designed with a 20 inch barrel in mind to get that velocity, the shorter m4 kills the inital velocity shotening the effective range of teh round.

Number two....as a German might I say that the 5.56 was first adopted by the US....so whats this shit about Europeans....the French maybe, but leave us Krauts out of it.
 

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The 556 isn't a bad round it's just a bad military round. When limited to FMJ type non expanding bullets you basically just put holes in a human target. Unless you hit the heart or head you get a faster kill putting a 3 shot burst in the guys thigh, if you hit the artery he bleeds out pretty fast.

In the LEO arena where you can use expanding bullets it's a very good round, a 60gr hollow point or ballistic tip may not kill the BG instantly every time but he'll sure as hell know he's been tagged, when an expanding bullet rips though his chest he's down and out whether he's still breathing or not.

The caliber ain't the problem, the bullets are.

In the military arena size matters so the bigger the caliber the bigger the hole and the more damage. You have to make up the lack of expansion to provide knockdown power by using bigger caliber. .308 dia hole does more damage than a .22 dia hole.
 

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fatcat said:
Indeed...

I love 5.56mm as much if not more than .308, the ballistics of the 5.56 is truely impressive for there size. I could go on and on about this... lets show some proof.

Just because its a small round and no recoil DOES NOT MAKE IT A PEA SHOOTER!





That's a pretty neat diagram but it's highly 1 sided and exagerated.

The 762x39 and 308 look about like what you'd expect to happen but the 556 is not even close. Just look at the diagram of the 556 and think about it. An inch long piece of jacketed metal doesn't just snap in half and make a wound cavity like that, if what the diagram shows really happened nobody would be complaining about the lack of performance. It just doesn't happen the way it shows, unless the fragments they show are bone fragments from a rib.

If you want to see for yourself take a bunch of phone books or catalogs duct tape them together and soak them in water for 5 mins and shoot into them. What will you find? if you make the stack long enough say 20" or more just to be safe, you will find a perfect .223 cal bullet with rifle marks and maybe a little misshapen and a .223 cal hole leading to it. If you try again with a regular hunting type bulet you get an 7-12" deep ragged hole that starts at 223 cal size and goes cones up to almost .50" and depending on bullet type you get pieces of shredded up lead/copper along the path.
 

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6.5 grendel FTW.


that said, 5.56 is fine for what it is, a 50 year old cartridge. we used 30.06 for less time and that's the 'all american round'

but nothing's going to ever change unless someone can serve up a rifle with 200% lethality (however you choose to calculate it) to the feds for cheap.
 

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On that link look at the west german 7.62....id take that over the 5.56 anyday.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I’m familiar with that trajectory diagram I suppose I did word my post poorly mostly I just like big loud painful guns is all hell I’m all hoped up on endorphins I’ve been shooting all day. I still dont like AR's
 

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But I would argue as many AR opponents have, that the short barreled M4 does hamper the killing efficiency of the round by putting a barrel on the gun nearly half the length of the one the round was designed for.
 
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