Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested
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Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested

This is a discussion on Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested within the Shotguns forums, part of the Gun Forums category; Tuesday Nov. 23, 2010 Mossberg 590A1 'Compact' Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) w OEM /14" barrel 12 gauge Fixed modified choke Hahn Precision receiver mounted 1913/Picatinny ...

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  1. #1
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested

    Tuesday Nov. 23, 2010

    Mossberg 590A1 'Compact' Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) w OEM /14" barrel
    12 gauge
    Fixed modified choke
    Hahn Precision receiver mounted 1913/Picatinny rail and oversized safety
    Primary Arms 'Microdot' red dot sight [By way of the company owner who is not a hunter but thought my concept idea was interesting enough that he heavily discounted my purchase on the spot.]
    OEM tritium front rifle type blade sight (Emergency)

    Remington 'Slugger' rifled slug 2 3/4" 12GA
    Brenneke 'K.O.' foster slug 2 3/4' 12GA



    I'd though of this concept four years ago.
    Began working toward it three years ago.
    Today it comes to a close.

    Concept:
    One shotgun (receiver and barrel) to meet four distinctly different tasks in functional capability.
    1) Home Defense and Combat Shotgun [Efficient for storage within and navigating small spaces while being able to deliver good stopping power.]
    2) Turkey hunting [Able to provide a controlled killing power cloud out to 40 yds.]
    3) Deer slug gun [Able to direct precise projectile solids between 50 and 75 yds.]
    4) Total cost of build at or less than $800 including all fees & taxes.

    All three of these on the surface to traditionalists are opposite opposed.
    But not if if you start from a book that has no pre-conceived notions and by that does not hold to convention for simple sake of being conventional (!).

    I've had multiple folk tell me my plan was stupid and/or not possible both in person, including fellow instructors, as well as via the internets at various gunfu forums that shall remain nameless.

    Well today the proof is in the pudding and all doubts have been put to rest.

    The above target was shot by me as _off hand_ and _standing_ with _no sling_ and using no magnifying optics of any sort with _commercial_ ammo I'd bought from my local Dick's!

    There were three other guys on the line with me today all firing high dollar deer slug guns every one using optics by normal convention, and they were firing as seated at a bench from shooting sleds with their guns strapped within to arrest recoil. Their results were same as mine.
    I don't own a rest, have never shot from one...And don't have one with me when I'm in a tree stand (!) real world.

    They stopped shooting to watch me shoot and take note of my results,to then ask; "What kind of gun is that?...That barrel is awfully short!"

    : )


    One of the former RSOs from S&W drove up as I was leaving and we chatted about my results. He was stunned.
    I told him it's just a matter of physics...And that shotguns and their shells contrary to popular belief are _not_ same as rifles and handguns as related to barrel length.

    Anyway this project is now officially done and put to bed.
    I'll be running this gun day after Thanksgiving toward winter deer in lieu of the Browning 16 gauge.

    Oct. 24th, 2010
    Same range...Same distance (50yds)...Same conditions standing off hand w/no sling...Though wind that day was not still but rather ~ 15mph right to left.


    Then I have to request approval from the BATFE to take it out of state to NY so that I can use it as well toward the 2011 spring and fall turkey seasons.

    To my mind this is the ultimate as they say 'Zombie' tool platform.
    Slugs for intermediate trouble interdiction and shot of varying type for close up personal defense...In a package that easily will fit in a backpack.
    If there was such thing as a zombie aside from mother rapers and child takers by the name of Deebo or Hayes.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Those shots at the bottom of the paper were my ranging shots as I was working to bring the elevation of the sight up across three tries to meet center of the 'Shoot N See' target.
    I had to dial in 24 clicks of elevation to put these heavy 1 ounce projectiles at dead center as POA.
    The group of five at the center were all in one continuous string being the IMHO VERY accurate & consistent Remington 'Slugster' shells. They are what I run in the 16 ga. and I get exact same hit what you look at exactly where you look at results.

    The outliers to the outer edges of the paper were the Brenneke which had reduced recoil and with that longer barrel timing as well as time of flight. They are a lighter projectile as well which makes them inherently less accurate than the heavy and higher velocity (higher recoil!) Remington.
    Last edited by Janq; 11-23-2010 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    nice looking rig janq!

    congrats - hopefully this will motivate me into completing my own SBS

  3. #3
    10111011 mattxander12's Avatar
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    very jealous! Here in IN, we cannot get SBS's ... only AOW
    That looks to be the perfect weapon to sling on your back and hit the road with a motorcycle during the coming zombie apocalypse!

    One question out of ignorance on my part: I was under the impression that shooting shot out of a rifled barrel increases the pattern dramatically, thus reducing its effective range. Am I correct in that ?

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  6. #4
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattxander12
    One question out of ignorance on my part: I was under the impression that shooting shot out of a rifled barrel increases the pattern dramatically, thus reducing its effective range. Am I correct in that ?
    no worries

    the barreled isnt rifled, the slugs are
    Last edited by MrMcCrackin; 11-24-2010 at 08:36 AM.

  7. #5
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    MMC is on point. ^^

    The barrel is smoothbore...Which IMHO is better overall as a rifled shotgun barrel is not necessary with modern ammo ($abot ammo is very expensive!) as smoothbore slug have been used by hunters for generations ND being smoothbore allows one to on the fly exchange to shot type shells if need be as related to home defense, against zombies.

    The projectile itself I was firing was not shot but rather a slug.
    There are three different types of slug...

    * Foster type [Note: Brenneke is a hybrid being both foster type _with_ refiling...Though generally referred to as being a Foster type projectile]
    * Rifled type
    * Sabot type

    For more info on shotgun slugs whihc can be and are used for a variety of applications do reference the following.

    Shotgun Ammo For Newbies... Pics and explanations of various ammo:
    By Brucelee
    http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

    Are You Using the Right Slug for Your Shotgun?
    Many hunters assume that all slugs shoot about the same. In truth, it takes some experimentation to find the best slug for your gun. Here's how to find out what works.
    http://www.gameandfishmag.com/huntin.../gf_aa106503a/

    Slugs do not pattern...They are a solid projectile, rather than being a shot cloud, like a rifle or muzzleloader.

    Effectively it becomes an intermediate distance (out to 200 yds.!) high caliber (.45 'rifle' as applied.

    Shotgun Slugs at 200 Yards
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksDWEB3MaYs

    Note: This is just one example as there many more on YouTube of shotgunners hitting fine/small targets with accuracy at 100 yds, 150 and 200+ yds.
    I choose to sight in my gun at 50 yds. because functionally that is all I'm going to be able to see game at toward a kill in my area where I hunt.
    Sighted in at 50 yds. dead on gets me by ballistic trajectory to 100 yds. with just a 2" hold over...If ever I on the off chance had such an opportunity in the field.

    - Janq
    Last edited by Janq; 11-24-2010 at 09:01 AM.

  8. #6
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    hey janq


    how do you like that micro dot?

    as compared to an aimpoint or whatever market segment its after?

  9. #7
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    MMC,

    After roughly 6 months (!) of waffling and reading other peoples reports and some very cockamamie 'endurance' reviews (baked in ovens covered in cheese and thrown across the ground ala YouTube) I decided to give them a try.

    I called primary Arms and spoke with the CEO Friday afternoon around 3P.
    I explained who I am (did not mention my Janq online persona) and the reasoning behind my project, as well that I am an instructor and I often feature product during specifically BHE courses that I teach detailing how stuff works, why and to what application.
    He kept listening rather than blow me off. Not always the case with others per my experience.

    So I explained my motivation and that although he sells stuff to the off brand wannabe GIJoes and/or gotta look tacticool crowd...My own focus is neither as I'm simply about function. Does it work, well, for an application.
    He again kept listening although he said most often people he talks to want his product because it looks like some other (Aimpoint) but they can't afford same so they buy his instead primarily for the "looks". I replied that I won't knock folk of that mindset, I just am not in that camp and further could careless about looking like everybody else standing around me on a shooters line.

    He then added that his product is not comparable to Aimpoint, even as others try to make as though it is.
    One he went explaining that it is water resistant but not waterproof but to one atmosphere. He said don't go throwing into the bottom of a pool and think it'll stay sealed.
    I responded telling him tht I'm not looking for an extreme duty use product here. I am not going to be serving nor chasing BGs among foreign lands. If I were then I'd be using an Aimpoint product as issued to me...Or buying same on my employers dime.
    I told him that hunters will be exposed to snow, rainfall (not being underwater) and knocking around through brush with at the very worst dropping heir gun onto rocks within a stream or pond momentarily.
    I'm not looking for nor do I or hunters need MIL spec durability gear. We just need Tonka grade at best. I don't expect more than what I paid in dollars US.

    So with all that said we then got to talking about hunters and hnting.
    I asked about models that supported an anti-reflection device because otherwise the objective lens coating is light reflective and always appears as auburn/red/orange. For turkey they can see color and this would stand out like a sore thumb. Same for deer who see three color, this perfect circle orb in the woods is not conditions normal for them...Dead giveaway.
    He then said that he doesn't sell many of the ARD enabled models as thy are generally for "snipers" (sharpshooters working from a hide). I told him that is exactly what a hunter is, especially turkey hunters!
    He said he was not a hunter and knew nothing about the practice but that my input would be greatly appreciated as the hunting market is something he's not entertained before as he's been nothing but the tacti-cool group, and now 3-gunners too.

    Anyway we exchanged personal contact info and he sent me out the unit immediately after hanging up the phone.
    It arrived yesterday via USPS priority mail along with a PA hat...And he emailed me today saying he's going to send me some .biz cards and company flyers too.

    I plan to write up a formal review to provide back to the owner but basically I was impressed by it's initial quality and build as out of the box.
    Then yesterday with it mounted I fired 35 shells....And I tell you this gun recoils. The sight not only took that but as evidenced by the target held it's zero across multiple shots to a fine degree.
    Again I was shooting standing off hand with no sling (!).

    I will be returning today to run some more ammo as to simply fine tune me (the gun is solid)....And because I simply love shooting shotgun and other heavy recoil rifles. : )
    My targets will be 8" paper plates, my normal IDPA training targets (6" center mass circle with 1" center square) and of course my Wal-Mart plastic pumpkins.
    I'll take more pics make video too.

    The only negatives I see toward this product thus far:
    * Battery life is just 1000 hours...Which on the surface is pretty good (much better than EOTech) but Aimpoint has a 2 yr. life although it costs $300 more! You get what you pay for.

    * The allen bolt used to manage the lockdown cross bolt is of a soft metal...Mine began to round out on first use. As most folk use an aftermarket QR base (base comes off for this model) it's generally not a big deal.
    But for me adding a QR base increases height disturbing the cheekweld alignment and making the product a moot item. So rather what I'lldo is remove the thumbwheel type cross bolt from my EOTech and install it on this as it uses a wide single slot that a coin can fit on the fly for removal/installation.

    Thus far my issues are relatively minor.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Note I suffered no/zero discomfort yesterday.
    I was wearing a t-shirt, light fleece pullover and a light fleece jacket only.
    My gun is the stock polymer stock and has no decelerator pad or anything...Just it's OEM rubber buttpad.
    I woke up this morning fine and I took no pills last night. I am not a huge guy either.
    Many people complain about shooting shotgun as being inherently painful. It doesn't have to be IF you use proper form and shoulder it properly.
    All of the boxes shown in the pic contain empty hulls as I'd fired. Knoxx type recoil reduction stocks and such items I do not at all find to be mandatory for any type shotgun and toward higher shell count sessions again I'm just not convinced it's necessary.
    The stock on this gun is just straight molded polymer with no built in technology or scientific design. And I am not a 'Terminator'.
    Last edited by Janq; 11-24-2010 at 10:55 AM.

  10. #8
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    thats great!

    thanks for the write up!



    i for one am glad my Aimpoint is built like a tank, my rig was knocked off the table yesterday and hit the concrete deck - function checked and fired - held perfect zero!

  11. #9
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    Yeah don't get me wrong as I'm not bashing Aimpoint or any other product of greater acquisition price.

    This product does not compete against them.
    It's more in line with Tasco and other such price point and grade product in quality and intended usage.

    Myself I can't justify the cost of an Aimpoint or Trijicon even as I can get those products at a discounted rate.

    BTW I hit the road to go shoot but my wife sent me on errands first for turkey day...I'm just now getting back with maybe :20M of sunlight left.
    I may try to go in the AM.

    - Janq

  12. #10
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    no worries - in due time

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