Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
Handgun Carry: Condition 3 aka 'Israeli Carry' = FTL
I received a PM yesterday from a person who is/was a brand new member and has/had zero posts.
I'd tried to send that person a response to state I would be addressing his question publicly but the user is no no longer active (?!).
Below is the PM in it's entirety...
I read the CCW thread on NASIOC that the argument was made against carrying concealed withOut a round in the chamber. The story there was a guy beaten by an attacker, but when he pulled his CCW the attacker stopped. Fortunately for the CCWr he did not need to shoot - because there wasn't a round in the chamber.
My question to you: I have a .40 S&W There are no safeties (except an extension to the trigger to add further distance for the pull). I have considered carrying israeli style for the safety.
Carrying a handgun with no round in the chamber, hammer down and the magazine otherwise full, or cylinder if it's a revolver, is referred to as being in 'Condition 3'.
It has become to be known as "Israeli Carry" only because in the early days of the IDF they were given surplus arms by NATO countries toward use in establishing a police force and military. The handguns in specific were of all manner of sort and function and at that time they had no base type of handgun to centralize around. Further in those days drop safeties and now modern handgun manufacture methods were not the norm as they are today.
Beggers cannot be choosers.
So as a manner of training and practical application in those early days all armed personnel carried their handguns as Condition 3 exclusively, which became known as 'Israeli Carry'. It was the best they could do in those times for themself. Further world wide this was normal because 40 yrs. ago drop safeties and such were not normative.
FFWD to the current and _modern_ times.
Over the last 20 yrs. drop safeties have become standard items in handguns along with lightweight low inertia firing pins and heavy firing pin springs which also act to reduce if not eliminate issue with guns 'going off' upon being dropped. Further today we even now have handguns that have no hammer at all and are internally activated by a striker. Glock, S&W Sigma and M&P series pistols, Springfield Armory XD amongst very many others are this way today. Modern. Normal.
So with that background out of the way, lets look at C3/Israeli carry in the modern world today.
First of all no law enforcement officers carry this way at all, anymore. Why? Because if they did they would be doing nothing but reducing their officer survivability odds...greatly.
Also BGs don't carry this way anymore and haven't since like the 80s....when modern guns started coming out being completely safe to carry hot in 'Condition 1' with one in the chamber and the hammer down (double action guns) or hammer back such as with single action only guns like the 1911.
When under stress with Deebo and O-Dog in your face drawing down on you with fists, knives, or there own handgun(s). How effective do you think you would be drawing, charging your sidearm which is to manually rack the slide, then bring the weapon to bear...and get beat/stabbed/shot, to die?!
Why would you do this? Especially when there is no good reason at all to do so.
Now if ones concern is for fear of their own specific handgun and how it might just 'go off'. Well that fear is not born from rationality nor reality. It comes like most other fears from ignorance. Being ignorant and unaware of how your handgun, a mechanical device, functions and _does not_ function.
Not being ignorant is the key fix toward fears in general and definitely in specific to this Israeli Carry practice, as applied to modern design and modern built firearms.
Oh and I have run into some folks in years past who thought/assumed that C3/Israeli Carry is the cool and 'tactical' way to carry because well that's what Walker Texas ranger does and some other jive ass actors on TV and in movies. Yeah, uh huh. Okay. Not.
That's TV. Burce Willis took down a whole German assault team by himself in bare feet with no short and using a single pistol with like two magazines plus a borrowed MP5. You gonna believe that crap too? Of course not. So then why run with Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris style garbage too? FTL.
Bottom line is if you don't or can't feel comfortable enough to carry in anything but Israeli Carry mode then either you need to better educate yourself toward how your handgun of choice actually works...or you need to invest a few hundred bucks in a modern handgun and leave grandpa's WW2 vintage forty five or .38 Super in the safe as a piece to look at and run on the range only.
Get on to these streets though and half step like that. Deebo and O-Dog will own you and laugh as they remove grandpa's pistol from your quivering if not still hand as you're laid out on the ground trying not to go to the light.
Oh and below are two real world this is not Hollywood videos of how quick ish does IRL go down and shows with clarity why thinking you'll have time and both hands to draw, charge the weapon, take aim, and fire is just not practical in these modern times.
New Smyrna Beach Medicine Shoppe shooting (no time available but to draw on the QT and fire. No racking the slide. No press checks. Not time, unlike in the movies)
Omaha Von Mar Mall Injured Victim Speaks (Dude is hot in his hand and arm. Essentially that arm was rendered useless so again an attempt to draw in C3/Israeli Carry would be foolish and non-functional)
Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
Great thread Janq, right on the money on all points, particularly as having to do with modern pistol design. Also a great point about how police officers don't carry C3. I've always been of the opinion that if you're going to carry C3, you may just as well not carry. When SHTF and you're carrying C3, you'll either 1.) forget you aren't chambered and ready to fire immediately upon drawing your weapon; 2.)unable to manipulate the slicde of the weapon due to the adrenaline interfering with your fine motor skills (hence the reason one should learn to point shoot); or 3.) Deebo and O-dawg are in too close to allow you to draw, rack the slide and get on target (hence the reason Wink spends at least a couple of mags per range session shooting from the retention position).
The only time I'm in C3 is when I'm carrying Mexican b/c my damn holster I ordered isn't in yet. C3 is stupid. Sure, you can train to make it work, but why add a step to an already intense situation ??
As per the video's, It was literally over in a minute. The GG was focused you could tell, and knew what to do. He didn't attempt to draw on someone already drawn... he snuck it out and shot and moved. I was actually pretty impressed with how smooth and fluid he was considering he had to be in the thick of "fight or flight"
As per the second video, it's a point as well that you shouldn't just train to shoot well with your strong side.
Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
One should be reasonably proficient shooting weak side as you observe. There are actually a whole lot of different little things that a civilian carrying concealed ought to be able to do, that, however is deserving of its own thread.
Originally Posted by mattxander12
Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
Agreed Wink in regard to under stress forgetting that one needs to charge the weapon, as carried in C3 condition.
In fact I see very often in news accounts statements by victims of just this. They draw and gun goes click. Then they realize oh damn I have to charge it! Stupid and unwise a mode of modern carry. Also I agree that if you cannot get your mind around not carrying in C3 mode then well you very seriously might consider not carrying at all.
Also agreed yet again with you and Matt too.
Shooting on the move as well as weak side and IMHO weak hand (!) draw and fire should be basic skill sets that anyone who is planning to carry on the streets, especially so civilians, should have thought toward, train on, and be competent with. The mall shooting victim as well as most anyone else who has ever been shot in an arm will tell you that pretty much that limb is instantly out of the fight...unlike how it goes for Bruce Willis and Chuck Norris in movies and on TV. You get hit and boom consider for all intents that limb to be useless to you.
This is exactly why I myself choose to hold myself to a higher standard of training and functional capability than many average persons slow fire
shooting at ranges across America at static distant targets.
I won't go so far as to say everybody who wishes to carry on the streets should be held to the same goal and standard as what I apply to myself. I also won't say that LEOs and other professional arms carriers amongst the streets should also be held to same or even higher with regularity beyond once a year qualifications.
But I will say that I would personally love to see many more new and different types of faces at my local IDPA matches (Why am I the only minority and it's been 2 yrs now...and why are there just 3 women period, one of whom is another shooters wife?). I would love to see more people training at public ranges shooting less like Kojak or Cagney & Lacey and more so there using imaginary cover in their lane and shooting one handed, off handed, as well as practicing in the lane failure drills using spent brass as well as under stress tactical reload drills.
I'm not saying there should be a law.
But I do wish more people would be self motivated and see the bigger picture.
Which to this question per the OP the wonder of if using C3/Israeli Carry is good or not should not even be a question if one were to just think about it alone and the circumstances under which a civilian on the streets might find them self caught up in a mess that would motivate them to draw in the first place. Stuff goes down very quick in seconds, even tenths of a second...unlike on TV and movies where folk draw and then go walk a mile through alleyways and such looking for trouble to give them an excuse to shoot.
I know I'm gonna get flamed for this one (take it however you wish, I'm still going to say it), but, in the first video, I counted a minimum of 10 (TEN) seconds from the time the GG appeared on camera up to the time he actually shot. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure ANYBODY (except maybe a 90 year old lady with arthritis) can draw, rack the slide, and be on target with a pistol in less than 10 seconds. Yes, I'm sure adrenaline and all that have an effect. Nevertheless, there was still plenty of time. (I know, not all situations are like this one. I KNOW!!!) Also, WTF was with the second employee (the one that went around the corner) it looked like he/she didn't even notice the robber... As for the second video, I can't say that I have heard anything about the event, and there was no actual video of the event (at least, not in the link posted), and therefore, I have no idea what actually happened. As far as I could tell from watching it, he wasn't even armed (unless I missed something? ), so the argument of HOW to carry is moot at that point, it's whether or not to carry in the first place. (Which, obviously, the answer would be yes, he should have been carrying)
In any case, props to the guy in the first video, too bad there aren't more people willing to stand up and do the right thing. :/
Let the flames begin.
Per the second video, I think the idea was more of a limb/hand being taken out of the equation per a real-life event.
My opinion on the carrying conditions is if there's a chance of the trigger being pulled without intention (mexican carry, pocket revolver w/o holsters, basically anything without holsters) then you shouldn't roll with one in the pipe. If you're not rolling with one in the pipe, then there's a greater issue mainly concerning the ignorance of carry methods.
As per the first video, The good guy did have time yes, but as you can tell he was more concentrated on the bad-guy, waiting for his moment to make a move. That reflects my feelings on the subject. IMO, racking the slide on the draw detracts from the smoothness, adds an extra step, and add's extra movement to a firearm already in motion. Draws should be smooth and you should be concentrated on the BG. I'm just not sure one could maintain the same level of smoothness, and thus efficiency and quickness when racking in mid-draw. Not to mention what if your arm gets taken out priori to the drawing ? There are methods to rack a slide one-handed...but again, its complicating the draw.
That is true, I was just throwing it out there.
Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
He had no _concealment_ to draw and charge his firearm, never mind time.
Also do not forget charging a firearm makes noise. A loud noise. That sounds doubly loud amongst otherwise silence in a small space. Good luck trying to charge that weapon and mask it's sound too. Not gonna happen.
And then there is do not forget loss of fine motor control thanks to a high adrenaline dump. Good luck fighting through hand shake and sweaty palms to make your hands that feel like they are in thick mittens grasp hold of a slide and super quickly on the QT inbetween dudes eye blinks charge the firearm and do so silently.
Not impossible. But damned difficult. And for what reason?
Why would you right out the gate handicap yourself?
P.S. - Nobody should be Mexican carrying nor pocket carrying without a holster. That is stupid, and very unwise.
Buy a holster, they are cheap these days. Carry IWB at the appendix. All kinds of holsters are sold to support this. They are not expensive.
Same goes for pocket carry. There are holsters specific to pocket carry applicable pistols and they work. They too are not expensive. Far less expensive than a hospital stay to repair the hole you've made in yourself and infinitely less expensive than losing your life to being shot by a BG as you slowly fumble about trying to charge your MC or pocket carried pistol that was unwisely kept in C3. Life is hard enough. Why purposefully make it harder?
Last edited by Janq; 02-24-2009 at 09:31 PM.
Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down)
The bit about sweaty palms above is of particular note when dealing with some of the uber tacticool finishes of our time. I know that my Desert Warrior is a noticeably more slippery finish than a conventional polished blue surface such as what is on my Royal II.
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