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Handgun Carry: Condition 3 aka 'Israeli Carry' = FTL

This is a discussion on Handgun Carry: Condition 3 aka 'Israeli Carry' = FTL within the CCW Conceal Carry forums, part of the Gun Forums category; Originally Posted by Janq HOV, Yet another reason why I've made the choice to stick with 1911s even as they may be old school and ...

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  1. #51
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) mwink822's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    HOV,
    Yet another reason why I've made the choice to stick with 1911s even as they may be old school and not deemed cool by those of new school.
    - Janq
    I get all kinds of crap for EDC-ing a 'dinosaur turd'/antique/relic, etc. (my 1911) that only has 7 rounds in the mag and one in the chamber. That 'dinosaur turd' will make a big gaping wound channel though.

    Anyway, to get back on point, whenever I have to travel from the office to any government buildings, be they state or federal, the gun and spare mags get locked in my desk. It's very much a bad idea to have a weapon in your car when traveling to any government buildings, and I travel to and from many of them for work. This is partly why I have taken to an IWB holster that attaches via snap straps or using a paddle holster. Any other time I carry out of the home or office I don't have to worry about disarming and re-arming to go into places.

  2. #52
    "Do not touch" Protege Menace's Avatar
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    Figured this thread is a good palce for this story. *pours more gas on this discussion*

    Possible Israeli carry saved this cops life:

    http://www.kentucky.com/211/story/715545.html

    Police: Madison inmate plotted to kill bailiff

    RICHMOND — Police say a jail inmate plotted to kill the Madison County bailiff who escorted him to court Wednesday, but his plan was thwarted by a gun malfunction.

    Sgt. Scotty Anderson of the Madison County Sheriff's Department said Steven Chaney took Bailiff Daniel Futia's gun about noon while the deputy unlocked the van to escort Chaney and three other inmates back to the Madison County jail after their hearings in district court. Chaney tried to shoot Futia twice, but the Glock didn't fire, Anderson said.

    Officers who heard a commotion from inside the courthouse on Main Street apprehended the green-jumpsuit-clad Chaney as he tried to run off, Anderson said.


    Chaney, 20, has been charged with disarming a police officer, second-degree escape and first-degree wanton endangerment.

    "Everything played out in our favor yesterday," Anderson said.

    Chaney was in district court Wednesday to address charges that he robbed a Shell gas station in Waco. During court proceedings, Chaney told Futia that he had diarrhea and needed to be taken to the bathroom twice. Anderson said Chaney used his two bathroom breaks to evaluate where Futia kept his gun on his holster.

    When Futia took the inmates outside, Chaney "saw an opportunity and took advantage of that bailiff," Anderson said.

    Futia took the three other inmates to the other side of the van when he realized that Chaney had his gun. The deputy also drew his Taser before Chaney ran off.

    It is typical for a bailiff to have four inmates in his or her care, Anderson said. "That's not a huge number," he said.

    Richmond Police are handling the investigation. Chief Larry Brock said he wasn't sure whether the inmates were handcuffed, but Chaney did have on leg irons. Madison County jail inmates who appeared Thursday in circuit court wore handcuffs.

    Chaney was returned to the Madison County jail. He cannot be released on bond because he violated his parole.
    Though it only helps when dealing with dumb criminals (though I hope never to come across an evil mastermind)
    Last edited by Protege Menace; 03-07-2009 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #53
    10111011 mattxander12's Avatar
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    eh. It saved his life. But I'd rather put my odds on the time it's quick deployment on his part would save his life.

    Its like seat belts....in some crashes, seat belts are what kills the occupant. More often than not, it saves the lives of the occupants.

    AND wtf is that bailiff doing not having a secure holster ??

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  6. #54
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    PM that case is not relevant to we who are civilians.
    We civilians largely within the US carry by requirement of law in a concealed fashion. Joe Blow criminal would not know that citizen John Doe is carrying much less on which side left or right.

    Also this LEO considering the job task assigned _should_ have been using a Level 2 or 3 retention type holster which would make it unpossible for his side arm to be removed from his on body mounted holster by some other person.

    - Janq

  7. #55
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) mwink822's Avatar
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    ^
    Agreed on all points. I would also like to point out that there are a number of concealable holsters on the market now to allow lawfully armed citizens to have better weapon retention than the classic retention screw or thumb break strap. Many of these holsters adopt locking systems borrowed from LE duty holsters.

  8. #56
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    If I were a LEO of any sort, aside from being an undercover on the job, there is no way in hell I'd walk these streets open carrying with anything less than an L2 duty grade holster. To not do so is plain foolish, as this latest of a string of transported prisoners taking down LEO attendees shows.
    This kind of thing seems to happen every 9 to 12 months. Then there was that case with a cruiser based LEO mid last year who while standing in line at a Dunkin Donuts had his firearm removed from his weapon belt from the rear by a opportunistic criminal who happened to walk up on him in line from the rear. The criminal pulled the officers weapon from his level zero (0) holster, popped him in the head at point blank range, then ran off to hide for several days before a family member gave him up as the whole east coast was being scoured looking for this chump.

    LEOs should be sporting L2 minimum, none of the L1 thumb break old school garbage.
    IMHO same applies to those few citizens in states where open carry is not only lawful on the books but is not deemed unlawful by local po-po.

    - Janq

  9. #57
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) mwink822's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    Then there was that case with a cruiser based LEO mid last year who while standing in line at a Dunkin Donuts had his firearm removed from his weapon belt from the rear by a opportunistic criminal who happened to walk up on him in line from the rear. The criminal pulled the officers weapon from his level zero (0) holster, popped him in the head at point blank range, then ran off to hide for several days before a family member gave him up as the whole east coast was being scoured looking for this chump.

    LEOs should be sporting L2 minimum, none of the L1 thumb break old school garbage.
    IMHO same applies to those few citizens in states where open carry is not only lawful on the books but is not deemed unlawful by local po-po.

    - Janq
    I remember the above quite well as it was just up the road from me in Philadelphia, I can't, however, remember which specific officer it was as there have been about 7 or 8 shootings/murders of on duty officers in Philly over the last year, one as recent as about a month ago.

    I agree, LEO's ought to carry their weapon in a minimum L2 holster, or ideally a L3 holster. A draw can be executed from one of these holsters with very little additional time to get the weapon out of the holster, on target and a round or three in the baddie.

  10. #58
    CCW n00b mtbchas's Avatar
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    Forgive my ignorance of L3/L2 holsters, but let me understand. Are you saying a person could deploy - L3 holster to target aquisition - in a short amount of time, but not get on target in close to the same amount of time from C3 to C1 out of a concealed holster?

  11. #59
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    No. ^^

    He was referring to duty grade holsters.
    There are four levels of holster type as regarded _specifically_ to retention of the firearm on body and within the holster...

    * Level Zero (L0) aka 'Open Top Holster'
    Open top with no secondary retention what so ever.
    Primary method of retention of firearm within the holster is by friction alone between the material of the holster and the firearms exterior finish/material.
    Common types include leather, nylon, and kydex holsters without any regard to cost as there are very inexpensive as well as very expensive holsters of this type.
    These type holsters are most common and widely found every where in stores and online.
    All of my own personal carry holsters are of this type including three OWB holsters that I own and use.

    * Level One (L1)
    A single measure of secondary retention, in _addition_ to the primary retention method of friction amongst the interior of the holster acting in some way on the firearms finish/surface itself.
    The most common and old school method of retention is the 'thumb-break' type method like everyone and their grandfather commonly used to see cops IRL and on TV wear at their side. A strap of leather with a metal snap covered the rear of the handgun so as to make it more difficult for an attacker to remove the sidearm from the body of the carrier.
    Down side for these though is that they were and still are generally slow to draw and bring to bear. They remain though very popular and manufacturers are selling them hand over foot to civilians.
    Widely and largely in industry the thumb breakonly type holster is deemed to be L1 on to it's own.

    * Level Two (2)
    This type holster reflects the latest in modern holster design and materials use.
    Almost always these holsters are made of kydex (fiber impregnated plastic) and/or carbon fiber and kydex constructed assemblies.
    This holster type retains the holster with two independent _secondary_ methods of firearm retention. Although there is by industry norm one exception to this which I will detail.
    Primary retention with an L2 holster is almost always by friction same as an L1 or L0 type holster. Additionally there is by mfr. typically two _additional_ and secondary methods of retaining the firearm within the holster to make it difficult to be removed by anyone but the operator.
    This can and often does include an exterior lever, button, or switch that is user/wearer activated. This switch disables a lock against the body or trigger guard of the firearm allowing for removal. The methods and means of physical locking of the firearm and release can and do vary widely.
    Now to point out an very much notable exception the holster industry has and does widely assign _modern design_ kydex based holsters that use a frame or trigger guard lock singularly as a 'secondary' retention method to be deemed as Level 2 type. The reason for this is to separate these much more effective type holsters from that of thumb break only type holsters. So keep this in mind when you shop that a holster marked or marketed as being L2 may in fact have just a single secondary retention method rather than one primary plus two secondary. This is not always the case but it is out there often enough that it's an item to know and be aware of.
    L2 holsters these days are extremely popular and in use by LEOs, especially those who are uniformed and/or carry with regularity in an exposed manner.
    IMHO any LEO who is of such a detail and who does not use an L2 holster is themself making a serious error in judgment. I would go so far as to say same for open carry practice civilians too.

    *Level Three (L3)
    This type holster has typically a total of three minimum retention methods _including_ a thumb break but can have more such as a fourth method.
    As I noted above the exception toward L2, similar applies here. An L2 holster with a thumb break added on almost always is immediately upgraded in marketing as being an L3 type holster.
    These type holsters are in great use by military right now for not only retention against attackers but also so as to not lose the gun in harsh environments, and/or combat where the wearer could be required to go to ground and drag himself over land. These type holsters tend to be really big, bulky, and heavy. MA state game wardens for example run L3 holsters for the reason of retention when navigating over land including riding on ATVs and by horse back over rough country.
    These holsters generally cost the most coin as well and are pretty much exclusively built from kydex.

    - Janq

    Note: I am aware of these different types through my normal world work. Several of my clients are distributors of this product against all types of duty grade holsters to which we service them in consultation toward marketing said product to government and military buyers including federal law enforcement agencies.

  12. #60
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) mwink822's Avatar
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    ^
    Like Janq, most of my personal carry holsters are of the L0 persuasion with exception, however, of my Blackhawk SERPA which uses a lock over the trigger guard. The trigger guard lock is easily released using the normal draw stroke as the release button is right where your trigger finger ought to be when drawing a weapon. This holster, however, is not all that good for concealment.

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