YouTube: 'MVSA IDPA Match - MGM's new charging target - FAST AS HELL'

YouTube: 'MVSA IDPA Match - MGM's new charging target - FAST AS HELL'

This is a discussion on YouTube: 'MVSA IDPA Match - MGM's new charging target - FAST AS HELL' within the General Gun Talk forums, part of the Gun Forums category; Preface: I post this video as being complimentary to the item I posted by Jane's as related to unsighted 'Point Shooting' and law enforcement officer ...

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  1. #1
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    The Tueller Drill/21' Rule Revisited, IDPA style


    I post this video as being complimentary to the item I posted by Jane's as related to unsighted 'Point Shooting' and law enforcement officer survival.

    Most everyone who is even remotely familiar with even basic rudimentary firearms training has heard of Sgt. Dennis Tueller and his famous 'Tueller Drill'.
    It's probably the most widely known gunfu term out there aside from 'Mozambique'.

    Also known as the 'Twenty One Foot Drill' the bottom line premise is that average fitness and determined human being can _close distance_ to a 'target' as running in a straight line within approximately 1.5 to as slow as 2 seconds.
    Mind you this is not Usain Bolt or Michael Johnson type athletes. We're talking Deebo and Slim Shady. Two seconds is not a lot of time folks. And that's all you get in time to detect a threat, make a judgment and......react. Two seconds. At the most. Very likely less.

    Below is a new vid recently posted to YouTube of an IDPA match stage setup using a training device that quite accurately imitates the Tueller Drill.
    It allows for live ammunition reaction and fire on to the target.

    Watch this video carefully at full screen mode, and learn...


    MVSA IDPA Match - MGM's new charging target - FAST AS HELL

    August 29, 2009

    This mover was just stupid. I've never seen one this fast.

    Stage 7 from the Shoot Rattle & Roll in 2009
    Shoot this thing 4 times, starting with your hand on the gun holstered.
    I shot a 1.80 with zero points down in this video.
    In IDPA scoring parlance zero points down means no misses and no errant hits on target but outside of primary hit zones being at the sternum and face.
    Where as his time score of 1.80 is the accumulation of raw time plus any errors scored as 'down points' to be counted as a time increase penalty.

    Several items to note:
    A) The shooter starts knowing that he will be attacked and he is at the holstered with hand on grip position, as akin to a typical law enforcement stance/posture as when questioning a potential threat.

    B) Time of YouTube video counter is 0:04s at the sound of the buzzer.

    C) The shooter is able to draw and get his front sight aligned in less than one second as in between the YouTube video counter of 0:04 and 0:05s.
    Non shooter and _unpracticed_ type shooters assume that being able to draw alone in a second muchless faster is to be super human. It very much is with training and practice. It is though if you are the type to never train from the holster. For those folks expect to be half as fast and even slower, on the draw alone.

    Now very big item here, look at the video and note the distance the target has advanced in just 0:04s. It's damn near 6'! Already it's greater than 25% of the way to making contact and the shooter has just now got his gun out of the holster.

    D) The shooter has full extension and front sight aligned at YouTube video counter 0:05s.
    The target is still moving closing distance...

    E) The shooter fires his first shot at just over 0:05s per the YouTube video counter.

    F) The shooter gets off a total of four shots from his Glock inside of 1.80s.

    G) The shooter at the 0:06s mark has run out of time and space as the target is now making contact with his shared position in space and time!

    Now that may seem like a lot.
    Well, it is!

    A lot can and does happen inside of 2s.
    Two seconds.

    So for us non law enforcement civilians who either carry as on the street being largely concealed and thus drawing from behind/under a garment, the idea and focus of training becomes even more important and critical.

    Can you draw from concealment as from your carry holster of choice and place a hit muchless multiple hits on a target moving at human speed? If not, why?
    Do you train for as much? If not, why?
    Do you think it's not all that relevant or realistic? If so, why?

    And if you are a LEO and you do not train at all muchless to this degree including such drills within your regimen then well you have to ask yourself as well; Why?.

    More on the apparatus that supports this training exercise as well as that of the Tueller Drill can be found here:

    Myself I have for a few years now been training using a modification of this same drill, but instead with target set to 15', rather than 21', and using a 'Dozier Drill' picking up a loaded gun from a table in front of me as loaded with three rounds and a second reload magazine of three on my hip. The target is an 8" paper pie plate.
    Goal being to grasp the weapon, acquire the target, Fire three rounds, initiate an 'Emergency Reload' (gun empty! and magazine empty!), charge the weapon, and continue firing until either the gun is empty or the target makes contact.

    I regularly can make it to reload and fire one round. I have on occasion reloaded and fired the sixth round at time of contact with the target. I assure you this is difficult and will get your heart racing after just two attempts.

    Oh and BTW, in the real world one would not just stand there waiting for Deebo to run into and through them.
    You would get off the X and MOOOVE!!!...While drawing, acquiring sights (if _distance_ allows) and/or begin point shooting as putting rounds into the target.

    Always know and never forget that not so much time but DISTANCE is our very best friend.

    Be careful out there.

    - Janq

    Note: I am not at all affiliated with the Attack Target people nor Dennis Tueller.
    I am not a law enforcement officer either.
    What I am though is a citizen who does carry, daily, everywhere and I take the right, responsibility, and craft along with legality very seriously.

    With training and dry fire practice as well as coin $pent on training courses both group and one on one I've developed to become as noted by others "Very Fast" out of the holster to first shot on target.
    That wasn't always the case though and isn't for very many other gun carrying persons be they LEO or civilian.

    The month you skip toward training may be equivalent to the two seconds _gain_ you would need so as to survive, rather than die.
    Last edited by Janq; 09-16-2009 at 09:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) MrMcCrackin's Avatar
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    yep crazy fast is how it usually goes down

  3. #3
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcCrackin
    yep crazy fast is how it usually goes down
    Which is why current training doctrine is; If engaged to the point that you find it _necessary_ to draw and engage then do not run double taps. Rather draw, retreat/GET OFF THE X!!! if at all possible so as to gain _distance_...and dump into Deebo's chest with combat accuracy.

    Don't be concerned about groups nor follow a shooting cadence...BANG BANG PAUSE BANG BANG PAUSE BANG.

    Rather it should sound like a machine gun shoot.
    Keep shooting until the threat stops...or you get stopped.

    Two Seconds.

    - Janq

    "Live or die. The choice is yours." - Jigsaw, 'Saw'

  4. #4
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    Update: A Continuation Discussing Real World Threats and Physiology


    I'd ran out of time and steam last night to draft this continuation so I waited until today.


    Now consider as fast out of the holster, numerous in shots fired (four) and accurate in hits this shooter was at this distance as in relation to the movers known speed...
    Consider how much _more_ effective he might have been had he been practiced in and applied point shooting skill (!).

    As referenced in my other thread the more normal contact distances for LEOs in specific is at engagement distances of 21' and much less.
    Same applies for civilians up to and including zero/contact distance. Now what?

    As this video was IDPA based there is a focus on _extreme_ accuracy rather than combat accuracy.

    People should know that IDPA accuracy is all things being relative quite fine. Were talking 8" pie plate dimensions, and less.
    Where as combat accuracy is in relation to scoring body hits as to the main trunk/torso.
    On the streets as a LEO or civilian we win by stopping the threat, period. Maintaining tight groups and style points count for nothing. They impress no one, not even the coroner as per reporting from coroners.

    Below is an image of a human torso as a diagram of internals...

    Source - Bayou Renaissance Man: Firearm recommendations for home defense, Part 2

    Below is an official IDPA target construction diagram...

    Source - The Breda Fallacy: Gun Nuts - IDPA

    Below is an image of a standard IDPA target as in relation to that of a well within averages height and build male human being...

    Source - Tri-County Sportmans League - IDPA

    Now imagine scoring just four hits as the video shooter did as into a real human being. As noted his score was 'Down Zero'. Excellent all things considered, as related to the IDPA game.
    But what about the very much real world?

    Assuming his autoloader had a magazine loaded to full capacity and changing no other variables such as his lack of movement from the 'X', imagine the results if he had at the buzzer/boot drop had skill enough to defend himself via point shooting to start if not in full (!).

    The volume of unconventionally _aimed_ fire would be greater simply for reason of having required less TIME to draw and take a firing set/position as in relation to the DISTANCE that the target was away and gaining upon him.
    Pay very close attention to the videos timing. Every action he makes comes at a cost in not just time but time AND distance. Distance as in relation to the threats proximity to his own as amongst a finite amount of space and time. This is a very important item to understand. It could save your life, literally.

    What is key toward stopping a human being is to either score a CNS shot or to induce bio-physical shock.

    The former is well known and documented to not be an easy item to do as even with a rifle as deployed at distance, never mind in using a relatively low powered handgun. The thought that one could simply score a head shot through the occular orbit or nasal cavity as under this manner of time to distance stress is not reasonable. It just is not and to bet on as much is foolish. Yes it happens, but with lots and lots of luck. I will not bet my life or that of my family on luck and randomness. It would be foolish to do so.

    Which leads us to the latter being bio-physical shock.
    Shock comes about from several different clear factors...

    One being pain.
    The brain becomes overloaded with sensory input and as means of survival it shuts the body or even itself down, temporarily. Many persons have witnessed or experienced this first hand from being stunned/dazed to even completely blacking out.

    A second being blood loss.
    It is very well known that blood loss will kill a person, slowly or quickly as depending on how leaky the body is and where the leak is located. Numerous leaks though is a problem as our body and brain (!) is highly dependent on and affected by blood pressure.
    Many persons have witnessed or experienced this first hand as well. This too is well documented human physiology fact.

    A third is reduction/loss of mental tenacity.
    Equally well known is that if an individual makes a personal choice to stop what they are doing or better yet becomes over ridden with fear as related to their own wound(s), they will most often times stop doing what they are doing and do something else.
    This too has been very well reported by first person witnesses as well as persons who have experienced such degree pain and wounding.

    So going back to the video and knowing all of the above, when not on an IDPA stage but rather in the real world where threats are human and often come at shooters (YOU!) as being armed...
    What will you do?
    What means of defense would you choose?

    What would you prefer...

    To be 'down zero' as with just four combat accurate and relatively fine shots fired and bet/hope that the rounds striking the threats lungs and maybe the top of the liver is enough to stop that _human being_?


    Would you prefer to have the skill sets and ability to fire with combat accuracy and coarse shots fired numbering six, seven, eight or more rounds down to slide lock resulting in very many multiple pain and blood loss inducing hits to both lungs, the pancreas, spleen, large and small intestine, the diaphragm (a muscle that directly supports/allows respiration!), the stomach and more never mind the pain of having ones skin which itself is an organ penetrated numerously and in many differing areas as opposed ot in one relatively small area.

    Yes by IDPA scoring the latter would be deemed newbie level non-competitive type shooting skill.
    But (!), you would be the one to more than likely walk away on the streets.
    ALIVE! As in you being the one who is 'down zero'.

    Think about that for a moment.
    You've got two seconds, at twenty one feet.

    This was a lot to write, and for you to read, but I feel it's an item that needs to be said.
    As based on known and very well documented real world results toward law enforcement officers alone my points are not not off target.
    They and we civilians too encounter the real world as largely in a one dimensional mindset. As though we are shooting at paper targets and in a quasi Bullseye style manner of competitive shooting. This is wrong. Or rather it is not what is most correct as related to real life threats who are not made of cardboard and do not go BEEEP just before moving.

    I would encourage all persons who take seriously their personal/professional carry of handgun firearms in specific to consider expanding their mind and mental view as related to skill set training and retention.

    Failure to do so may be fine and okay.
    Or it may not. But then to that degree you're betting toward and have dependence on lady luck and randomness.
    Is your life and that of your work associates/partner and/or that of your family worth more to you than luck and randomness?

    A very personal matter that question is, but for me the answer is very unequivocal. Yes.
    I am not a top shooter in IDPA but I never went in to that sport hoping to be so. For me it is merely trigger time. As real world much of what they do in that sport/game to win I would not choose first if even at all as on the streets up against Deebo, Slim Shady, and/or Michael Myers type non-cardboard threats.

    Be careful out there.

    - Janq

    "The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand." - Sun Tzu,'The Art of War'

  5. #5
    Gunatic Guru Ducman's Avatar
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    The problem with just blasting rounds into a target is you don't have control over where they are going. An aimed shot is always superior to an unaimed one. I see to many shooters that think pulling a trigger fast is some indication of skill. Anyone can rip .15 splits, but they can't tell you were the shots are landing. The skill is being able to call the shots at speed. Especially in CCW, you need to aim and account for every round

  6. #6
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    Correct, as again keyword being 'combat accuracy' which is man sized torso coarse rather than 4" pie plate fine.
    Controlled directed fire.

    Ghetto drive by spray and pray is not going to work nor what's suggested.

    - Janq

  7. #7 KellyTTE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    Correct, as again keyword being 'combat accuracy' which is man sized torso coarse rather than 4" pie plate fine.
    Controlled directed fire.

    I would disagree with your definition of 'combat accurate'. To steal a better version, if I may from Rob Pincus; "combat accurate is any shot that substantially reduces your opponents ability to present a threat.".

    Even a miss, if it scares off your opponent, is combat accurate if he/she ceases to pose a threat.

  8. #8
    Gunatic Loyalist (Bow down) Janq's Avatar
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    I was/am though specifically speaking toward accuracy as in a manner of shots fired and hits made against the target of intent, while in combat.
    Not wild shots, missed shots, nor shots that do not hit the target but cause a guy to release his bowels (i.e. 'warning shots') per Rob Pincus' view of the term.

    Not that I disagree with Pincus in that if a shot fired stops the threat from being threatening then that was a shot that worked. But I would not, am not, and was not applying the term 'combat accurate' to such an action & result.

    As noted by Duc we are responsible for every round fired.
    Outside of a field of war, or in.

    - Janq

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